Does Your Church Have Formal Membership?

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Thirty years ago, my "instruction" about tithing included that if you give your 10%, you can take it off on your charitable contributions at the end of the tax year.

I also was told that you cannot outgive God when giving your tithes and offerings. No mention of alms.....

While this is very true, I am of the belief that giving is between man and God. I further believe that God blesses because of our faith that He will provide for his children, not because I gave a certain percentage of my income to the organized church system.

You don't consider "alms", giving to the poor, benevolence, etc as offerings? See, you have to understand here, I don't subscribe to the typical financial system most Apostolic churches do... that tithes to the pastor, and offerings to the church operations.

I believe tithes are to go to the local church, and the salaries of the ministers (if they are salaried), insurance, light bill, christian education expenses, etc should all come from the tithe. Then anything anyone gives above and beyond is an offering, whether it be in the missions offering, extra money in the plate, or handing it to the begger on the street needing food.... to me, all of that is offerings.

And yes, I do believe Pastors should be salaried, and have a set amount per month, so that all churches can operate on a budget, have a forecasted budget, etc and plan for growth, savings, etc. I do not believe that all the tithe should go to the pastor, and do not believe that the pastor should own the building, church vans, property, etc.

I also don't believe in external fundraisers, and that all ministries, ladies, men, youth, children, etc should all be funded from the tithe brought into the church.... I know that will set some off around here, lol.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by acerrak

if you really want to get into tithes it was for the levites, under the old covenant, However God does love a cheerful giver.

Yes, we have had plenty of recent conversations on these forums about tithes.

You preaching to a singer in the choir on this subject.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

So...I guess the Apostles would not be able to take part in the building's business. Sometimes God uses the poorest of the poor to deliver his Word to others.
Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

(Acts 3:6)


The best teachings would go elsewhere.

So because someone is poor they don't have anything to give? Even when I was broke... I had something to give... even if it's a penny......

It sounds like your debate is about giving... and that's not what I started this thread about... so if you want to discuss giving, etc... would be glad to but will need another thread started. This thread is about does your church have formal membership, and if it does or doesn't....why or why not.

[HRea]

Originally Posted by acerrak

all though we have Pa systems etc etc. those are material things, and the 1st church in the 1st century shared all material things.

Like i said i understand your part but still i havent seen a reason for such things.

the grecians widows was murmuring because they was being neglected by the hebrews in food distribution. we must be carefull to not allow that to happen.

Excellent points here. However, looking at the needs and what the body of Christ can do, several non-apostolic churches in my area worked with businesses for their spare and old food and other articles. When they organized this effort, they required any church by a lawfully recognized church (either through the state or federal government). This then necessitated the need for by-laws and membership. It wasn't a bondage on folk but a way to minister to people.

Originally Posted by acerrak

if you really want to get into tithes it was for the levites, under the old covenant, However God does love a cheerful giver.

In the latter part of the OT, Jesus taught to render to Caesar and to God what belonged to each. Using charitable contribution deductions, the cheerful giver can prevent Caesar from taxing the things that are given to God and for use in the kingdom.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by HRea

Excellent points here. However, looking at the needs and what the body of Christ can do, several non-apostolic churches in my area worked with businesses for their spare and old food and other articles. When they organized this effort, they required any church by a lawfully recognized church (either through the state or federal government). This then necessitated the need for by-laws and membership. It wasn't a bondage on folk but a way to minister to people.



In the latter part of the OT, Jesus taught to render to Caesar and to God what belonged to each. Using charitable contribution deductions, the cheerful giver can prevent Caesar from taxing the things that are given to God and for use in the kingdom.

Great points... just like with ordination and licensing of ministers. That piece of paper means nothing... but if you want to minister in Maximum Security Prisons in TN, better be ordained.... and have a piece of paper to show it. Licensed minister isn't good enough, must be ordained.

And in dealing with non profit org laws in many places, you must be incorporated, have by-laws, and have formal membership rolls, etc to participate.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

So because someone is poor they don't have anything to give? Even when I was broke... I had something to give... even if it's a penny......

It sounds like your debate is about giving... and that's not what I started this thread about... so if you want to discuss giving, etc... would be glad to but will need another thread started. This thread is about does your church have formal membership, and if it does or doesn't....why or why not.

I've always been of the strong belief that time given is also the equivalent of money when it comes to tithes and offerings. The value of which can become pretty nebulous but then again only if your one to count every seed and divide every penny.

When it comes to giving we all need to be more like four men at a restaurant, not four women.

Four women go out to eat and the bill comes to 38.78. One inevitably grabs a calculator and starts figuring out what each person owes along with the proper tip.

Four guys go out to eat and the bill comes to 38.78. All four throw in a $20 bill and consider the excess a tip. All walk out happy.

(Granted I do not believe in the tithe as a still-existing law, but I do believe in giving.)

[HRea]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

Great points... just like with ordination and licensing of ministers. That piece of paper means nothing... but if you want to minister in Maximum Security Prisons in TN, better be ordained.... and have a piece of paper to show it. Licensed minister isn't good enough, must be ordained.

And in dealing with non profit org laws in many places, you must be incorporated, have by-laws, and have formal membership rolls, etc to participate.

It really is only to satisfy the worldly requirements. Callings and gifts come from God, not man nor an institute, but to reach some, you need these things. Paul considered that some flexibility was required on the preacher's part in order to minister the gospel.

1 Corinthians 9:22b ...I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

You don't consider "alms", giving to the poor, benevolence, etc as offerings? See, you have to understand here, I don't subscribe to the typical financial system most Apostolic churches do... that tithes to the pastor, and offerings to the church operations.

I believe tithes are to go to the local church, and the salaries of the ministers (if they are salaried), insurance, light bill, christian education expenses, etc should all come from the tithe. Then anything anyone gives above and beyond is an offering, whether it be in the missions offering, extra money in the plate, or handing it to the begger on the street needing food.... to me, all of that is offerings.

And yes, I do believe Pastors should be salaried, and have a set amount per month, so that all churches can operate on a budget, have a forecasted budget, etc and plan for growth, savings, etc. I do not believe that all the tithe should go to the pastor, and do not believe that the pastor should own the building, church vans, property, etc.

I also don't believe in external fundraisers, and that all ministries, ladies, men, youth, children, etc should all be funded from the tithe brought into the church.... I know that will set some off around here, lol.

That is a good concept Bro. Robbins, but I never experienced that during my time in a OP church. I was indoctrinated that offerings to go to the organized church system and not for alms.

In this region, when attending an Apostolic church system, I've only known that, as it was explained to me, 1. all tithes went to the pastor and 2. offerings went to the expenses of the church.

Special offerings were taken up for:
Building funds.
Missions.
Sunday School offerings. (Every Sunday, of course)
Ladies Auxillary funded themselves.
Youth funded themselves.
Parents funded children's ministries...if there was one.

If a saint was experiencing an individual crisis, then after all the other offerings were taken up, a special one time offering was taken up for the family in need. Sometimes it is money for the needy, sometimes it was food from the pantry. But most times it was a one time thing.

Sorry, but this is the way I experienced it, which is one reason why I will not hold membership of any church in this region.

And yes, acerrak is correct that tithing belongs to the Levite because the levites had no land inheritance from which to have sustenance for the family. They were God's servants and the rest of the tribes tithed for them, the widows, orphans and strangers.

Today, the Holy Ghost is the earnest of our inheritance, which is worth far more than the 10% tithe.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

So because someone is poor they don't have anything to give? Even when I was broke... I had something to give... even if it's a penny......

It sounds like your debate is about giving... and that's not what I started this thread about... so if you want to discuss giving, etc... would be glad to but will need another thread started. This thread is about does your church have formal membership, and if it does or doesn't....why or why not.

Let me remind you that when you started this thread, you said this:

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

Well, I have to say that I liked it.... especially from an administration viewpoint.

I like that people make a public profession saying, this is my local fellowship, this is my pastor, and this is my local church family. I plan to support it with my finances, attendance, and unity.... and I plan to be active in it's mission. We also made sure that only members in good standing (supporting the church financially and in attendance) could vote on major issues before the congregation... only folks with skin in the game could be part of the decision process as to where we were headed.

I myself, like the differentiation between someone who is a member of that local church, and just someone who attends there from time to time. Back in the day, when you joined a Church of God, we used to take vows before the congregation.... to enter in unity and convenant with one another.

So with what you posted in mind and me knowing that all members with the above rules would not really be a member in good standing without the "financial support" you made giving an issue.


Furthermore, if it was a "giving" debate with me, as you just posted, then I would not have posted this:

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

If people want to take vows, claim a man as their pastor and local church assembly, support through finances and attendance...I suppose that there's no harm in it.


I also realize and respect that as a non-member, I would not be allowed to vote in church matters. It does not necessarily mean that I would not be providing financial assistance to the church I attend because I take no vows of membership. The church or pastor will never know my contributions.

Your quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

My parents give cash and never record their giving in anyway, therefore the church has no record as well. However, they both know as well they can't vote in business sessions, and can't serve in any church office, like SS Teacher, Deacon, etc since there is no record to show they support that local church with their finances.

But because you posted that your own parents follow their convictions about giving cash and that they would never be allowed to participate in church ministry because there is no record to show that they support their local church with their finances....I would say that this thread about church membership includes finances. You, yourself would say that a person who does not give of their finances would not be a member in good standing.
So...yes...church membership includes giving and how it is spent.

Even though I was at one time a member of good standing, I still had no vote in how the monies given were spent. The pastor told it and that was the way it was.

[Cindy]

No, and some threads around here stay on point. And not everyone will agree with each other.