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  #21  
Old 01-18-2012, 10:43 PM
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Scott Hutchinson Scott Hutchinson is offline
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Re: Zionism And American Politics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFRGDyX48c
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  #22  
Old 01-19-2012, 12:53 PM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Zionism And American Politics.

SH - you are treading on dangerous ground here. Jews have been the most persecuted people on earth since the cross.
If you will examine the motives of those who are behind the "movement to expose the Zionists", you will find that you do not want to associate or be lumped together with this group.
Everytime I run into some one with this viewpoint, they are full of hatred and bigotry. And would resort to violence, if they thought they could get away with it.
Also, by your definition of Zionism, George Soros would the chief Zionist in the world.
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  #23  
Old 01-19-2012, 01:03 PM
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Re: Zionism And American Politics.

I do not advocate persecution or violence to anyone,and I think what Hitler did what was certainly horrific and evil against humanity.I love all people as our Lord did.So please don't lump me into a Skinhead type of mentality.As by one blood God made many nations.I'm just trying to provoke thought.
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  #24  
Old 01-19-2012, 04:47 PM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Zionism And American Politics.

Brother Scott, it is not your fault that people do not want to learn the difference between Zionist and Jewish people...and there is a difference between them.

From the website http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm

TRADITIONAL JEWS ARE NOT ZIONISTS
Although there are those who refuse to accept the teachings of our Rabbis and will continue to support the Zionist state, there are also many who are totally unaware of the history of Zionism and its contradiction to the beliefs of Torah-True Jews.

WHAT IS ZIONISM?
One of our most oft-asked questions is "what is Zionism?"


Theodor Herzl Zionism is a movement founded by Theodor Herzl in 1896 whose goal is the return of Jews to Eretz Yisrael, or Zion, the Jewish synonym for Jerusalem and the Land of Israel.

The name of "Zionism" comes from the hill Zion, the hill on which the Temple of Jerusalem was situated.

Supporters of this movement are called "Zionists".

The purpose of this website is to explain why traditional Jews do not support Zionism (the return to the land called "Israel") and why the Zionist idealogy is totally contrary to traditional Jewish law and beliefs and the teachings of the Holy Torah.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/whatis.cfm

More from this website:

ZIONISTS DO NOT REPRESENT JEWS
From the inception of the Zionist State and particularly in recent times, the impression has been created in the World that there is some connection between the State, which falsely calls itself Israel, and the Jewish people as a whole. Therefore, we who continue to uphold the never-changing tradition of the Jewish people find it proper to again clarify the following points:
A Jew is one who remains faithful to the laws of the Jewish religion, that is, the Holy Torah and its commandments.
The Jewish people became a people before they had their own land, and continued to exist as a people also after they went Into exile, because our very people hood is based exclusively on the Torah.

The Holy Land was given to the Jewish people on the condition that they observe the Torah and its commandments. When they failed to do this, their sovereignty over the land was taken from them, and they went into exile. From that time, we are prohibited by the Torah with a very grave prohibition to establish a Jewish independent sovereignty in the Holy Land or anywhere throughout the world. Rather, we are obligated to be loyal to the nations under whose protection we dwell.

This situation has existed for close to 2000 years when the Jewish people were dispersed throughout all corners of the world. During this time, the Jews always remained faithful to the country in which they lived.
The Jewish people are grateful to all those merciful nations which have allowed them to observe Torah and the commandments undisturbed.
From ancient times, the relations between the Jewish and Islamic peoples have always been those of peace and brotherhood, and friendship always reigned between them. The proof of this is the fact that for centuries, in all the Arab lands, hundreds of thousands of Jews lived in honor and amidst mutual esteem.

Jews throughout all generations yearned to grace the sacred soil of the Holy Land and to live there. However, their sole purpose was to fulfill the commandments dependent upon the land and to absorb Its holiness. Never, G-d forbid, did they have any nationalist or sovereign intent whatsoever which, as mentioned above, is forbidden to us. Indeed, also here in the Holy Land, our fathers lived in neighborly harmony with the Palestinian residents of the land, helping one another, to mutual benefit.

Until about two hundred years ago, the vast majority of Jews observed the Torah and the commandments in entirety. Jewry's leaders were Torah scholars, who directed the people according to the Torah. They were loyal citizens in the host nations where they dwelled and to the local laws. They prayed for the welfare of their respective governments. To our sorrow, at that time a small number of Jews slowly left their observance of Torah and commandments. Together with this, they began to deride the spiritual leadership of their people. This assimilation was the basis upon which, one hundred years ago, the ideology of Zionism was born. Its founders were assimilated Jews who had abandoned the Torah.

Immediately at the founding of the Zionist movement, masses of Jews under the leadership of their Rabbis, launched a heavy battle against Zionism. Their attack was directed not only at the non-religious Zionist idea, but rather, primarily at its opposition to the Torah-ordained path that Jewry must follow while in exile. As such, the Zionists incited the nations of the world, demanding political sovereignty over the Holy Land while remaining oblivious to the resentment this would arouse In the Palestinian Arabs, the land's veteran inhabitants. As stated, the leaders of Orthodox Jewry vehemently opposed the movement with all force.

The Zionists refused to heed the voice of the Rabbis and Torah authority. They persisted in their ways until they succeeded in influencing the British government to issue the Balfour Declaration concerning the "establishment of a national home for the Jews in the land of Israel." To our great sorrow, from that point on began the deterioration of the good relations between the Jews and the Arab inhabitants of the land. This occurred because the Arab people understood that the Zionists wished to seize ruler ship from them. In addition, the Arab people had suspicions as if the Jewish people wished to seize control of the Temple Mount and other similar sites. Matters worsened as a result.

The Jewish leadership of that time saw it as proper to clarify before the Arab leaders that the Torah-true Jews had no desire whatsoever for sovereignty, and that our desire was to continue to live in peace with the Arabs, as we had always done. The leader of the G-d-fearing Jewish community at that time, Rabbi Yoseph Chaim Zonnenfeld. of blessed memory, organized a delegation in July of 24' which visited King Hussein and his sons Faisal the King of Iraq and the Amir Abdullah In order to lucidly present to them the position of the G-d-fearing Jewish community. The Jewish delegation clarified unequivocally that Torah Jewry is totally opposed to the Zionist sovereignty over the Holy Land. It Is worth noting that the delegation was received with great honor. They were even assured that all Arab lands were completely open to Jews, however, on the condition that the Jews do not demand political rights. This condition also applied to the Holy Land. One of the members of the Jewish delegation, Professor Yisroel Yaakov De Haan, paid with his life for his participation.

Torah Jewry protests at every opportunity against the Zionist rule over the Holy Land, and the Zionist rebellion against the neighboring nations. Torah Jewry has condemned the Zionist oppression of the Palestinians, the land's veteran inhabitants who have been driven from their homes and properties. The Zionists' barbaric and violent deeds are absolutely antithetical to the essence of the Jewish people.

Torah Jewry has never ever recognized the Zionist state. Since the Zionists succeeding in establishing their state, Torah Jewry has continuously announced to the world that the Zionists do not represent the Jewish people, and that the name "Israel" that they use is a forgery. For as has been stated above, it is forbidden to us from the Torah to rebel against the nations, and all sovereignty by us is prohibited. Rather, we await the days when all the world will recognize the sovereignty of the Creator, and the words of the prophet Isaiah will yet be fulfilled: "And they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. No nation will lift its sword against any other, nor will they learn warfare anymore."

Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews have refrained to this day from taking any funds from the Zionist regime, whether for their educational institutions, synagogues or other benefits. Obviously, they do not participate in the Zionist elections, whether for the "Knesset" or for the municipality. We do not serve in their army, and we even avoid speaking in the Hebrew language that the Zionists Invented. (incidentally, this is not the holy and true Hebrew language in which the Bible is written.) All this is done because Torah Jewry does not recognize the Zionist regime, which Is against the Torah and against humanity.

Lately, the question has once again arisen concerning the Temple Mount and sovereignty over it. Thus, we wish to state unequivocally: a) In our time, it is a severe Torah prohibition for any Jew to set foot on any part of the Temple Mount area. b) The Jewish people have no claim whatsoever to sovereignty over this holy site, which is under Islamic authority, nor over any other holy site. Rabbi Zonenfeld was once asked, "is it true, that the Rabbi prefers an non-Jewish government over all of the Holy Land"? Rabbi Zonenfeld replied, "if King Hussein would rule over Palestine, the holiness of the Holy Land would not be diminished to even to an Iota degree". We yearningly await G-d's great day, when He will return His Divine Presence to Zion, restoring the holy city to its former holiness and glory as in days of old, to be a light to the peoples and the nations.

The Zionists have no right of any sovereignty over even one inch of the Holy Land. They do not represent the Jewish people in any way whatsoever. They have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people. Therefore, their words, declarations and actions are not in any way representative of the Jewish people. This is because the Zionists' seizing of power over the Holy Land is antithetical to Jewish law, and also because the Zionists do not behave like Jews at all rather, they desecrate the sanctity of the land.

We once again clarify that it is our desire to live in peace with our Arab and Palestinian neighbors, as we did before the Zionist revolution, and as Jews all over the world till today live, accepting the yoke of rulership of their host nation, with complete loyalty. Our sole desire is to serve our G-d and to fulfill His commandments with a perfect heart and to delight in the radiance of the sanctity of the Land.

All this comes from a Jewish authored website.

Read what they said about the Holocaust. Look over the website good because their views in their current events section is enlightening.


The Jewish people are speaking out about what is happening in the Holy Land and trying to educate the people around the world.

Zionism is most certainly in American Politics and it is being discussed by news sources all over America and not associated with any one group as being suggested by some here.

Shalom TV interviews Joseph Biden, who at the end of the video admits to being a Zionist even though he is not a Jew.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAZmO80dLfE



I did not read any thing in this thread where Brother Scott has any hatred for the zionist or for the Jew. Perhaps he is just trying to have an honest discussion about the truth of current events? The reason many Christians are ignorant about current events is because ... they are willfully ignorant and will not research.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
(Hosea 4:6)
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  #25  
Old 01-19-2012, 05:58 PM
bbyrd009 bbyrd009 is offline
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Re: Zionism And American Politics.

Amen. With any spiritual concept of or related to God, if satan can cloud the waters, he will.
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  #26  
Old 01-19-2012, 06:06 PM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Zionism And American Politics.

I never thought or stated that SH had any hatred.
I don't see much discussion, just links posted that go to people that have their own axe to grind.

How about let's go to Wikipedia for a viewpoint that is a little less vitrolic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

"Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a Jewish political movement that, in its broadest sense, has supported the self-determination of the Jewish people in a sovereign Jewish national homeland.[1] Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to advocate on behalf of the Jewish state and address threats to its continued existence and security. In a less common usage, the term may also refer to non-political, cultural Zionism, founded and represented most prominently by Ahad Ha'am; and political support for the State of Israel by non-Jews, as in Christian Zionism.

Critics of Zionism consider it a colonialist[2] or racist[3] movement."

"The multi-national, worldwide Zionist movement is structured on representative democratic principles. Congresses are held every four years (they were held every two years before the Second World War) and delegates to the congress are elected by the membership. Members are required to pay dues known as a shekel. At the congress, delegates elect a 30-man executive council, which in turn elects the movement's leader. The movement was democratic from its inception and women had the right to vote."

"The 28th Zionist Congress, meeting in Jerusalem in 1968, adopted the five points of the "Jerusalem Program" as the aims of Zionism today. They are:[14]

Unity of the Jewish People and the centrality of Israel in Jewish life
Ingathering of the Jewish People in its historic homeland, Eretz Israel, through Aliyah from all countries
Strengthening of the State of Israel, based on the prophetic vision of justice and peace
Preservation of the identity of the Jewish People through fostering of Jewish and Hebrew education, and of Jewish spiritual and cultural values
Protection of Jewish rights everywhere
Since the creation of modern Israel, the role of the movement has declined and it is now a peripheral factor in Israeli politics, though different perceptions of Zionism continue to play a role in Israeli and Jewish political discussion."

It sounds like a terrible movement.

Tell me what about this thread relates to current events and to Zionism's role in current events?
The problem is, that just as in the past, the n word was used to refer to African-Americans, pejoratively, now the word Zionist is used by the anti-Semitic world to refer to the Jew, in the same manner.

The truth is that the world is again becoming more and more anti-Semitic.

And don't try to imply that I am ignorant or do not know how to research.
Which is exactly what you meant to do with your comment.

"Either how can you say to your brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in your eye, when you yourself behold not the beam that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of your own eye, and then shall you see clearly to pull out the mote that is in your brother's eye."

Later...
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  #27  
Old 01-19-2012, 06:14 PM
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Re: Zionism And American Politics.

If the Jews are not to return to the place in which they are currently and establish their nation, then what is the prophecy that Ezechiel had concerning the valley of dry bones when he was commanded by God to prophesy unto these bones and when he did they rose up with flesh on them. And how is it that the Israeli armies had such great victory in the war when they reestablished their nation in the face of being out numbered ten to one and being out manned by vehicles of warfare six to one.
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  #28  
Old 01-19-2012, 06:33 PM
bbyrd009 bbyrd009 is offline
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Re: Zionism And American Politics.

Yes, I don't think either extreme position is really truth. There are many good committed people attempting to affect change from within.
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  #29  
Old 01-19-2012, 07:45 PM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Zionism And American Politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
I never thought or stated that SH had any hatred.
I don't see much discussion, just links posted that go to people that have their own axe to grind.

How about let's go to Wikipedia for a viewpoint that is a little less vitrolic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

"Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a Jewish political movement that, in its broadest sense, has supported the self-determination of the Jewish people in a sovereign Jewish national homeland.[1] Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to advocate on behalf of the Jewish state and address threats to its continued existence and security. In a less common usage, the term may also refer to non-political, cultural Zionism, founded and represented most prominently by Ahad Ha'am; and political support for the State of Israel by non-Jews, as in Christian Zionism.

Critics of Zionism consider it a colonialist[2] or racist[3] movement."

"The multi-national, worldwide Zionist movement is structured on representative democratic principles. Congresses are held every four years (they were held every two years before the Second World War) and delegates to the congress are elected by the membership. Members are required to pay dues known as a shekel. At the congress, delegates elect a 30-man executive council, which in turn elects the movement's leader. The movement was democratic from its inception and women had the right to vote."

"The 28th Zionist Congress, meeting in Jerusalem in 1968, adopted the five points of the "Jerusalem Program" as the aims of Zionism today. They are:[14]

Unity of the Jewish People and the centrality of Israel in Jewish life
Ingathering of the Jewish People in its historic homeland, Eretz Israel, through Aliyah from all countries
Strengthening of the State of Israel, based on the prophetic vision of justice and peace
Preservation of the identity of the Jewish People through fostering of Jewish and Hebrew education, and of Jewish spiritual and cultural values
Protection of Jewish rights everywhere
Since the creation of modern Israel, the role of the movement has declined and it is now a peripheral factor in Israeli politics, though different perceptions of Zionism continue to play a role in Israeli and Jewish political discussion."

It sounds like a terrible movement.

Tell me what about this thread relates to current events and to Zionism's role in current events?
The problem is, that just as in the past, the n word was used to refer to African-Americans, pejoratively, now the word Zionist is used by the anti-Semitic world to refer to the Jew, in the same manner.

The truth is that the world is again becoming more and more anti-Semitic.

And don't try to imply that I am ignorant or do not know how to research.
Which is exactly what you meant to do with your comment.

"Either how can you say to your brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in your eye, when you yourself behold not the beam that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of your own eye, and then shall you see clearly to pull out the mote that is in your brother's eye."

Later...
So...you don't like the Jewish point of view? Wikipedia is not an authoritative or a reliable site for accurate information. Much of it's information is watered down. You would rather assimilate a watered-down website with just general information on the Jewish state than to take the strong medicine that the Jewish people are trying to educate the world with? If this was a true jewish state, they would not have a secular government. They would have a jewish government that followed the Torah laws for this is what the Jews believe. If you want to know about zionism and current events bad enough, you would not be asking me to tell you how this thread relates, you would be doing your own research to see how it all ties in together.

Don't give me the terrible example of the "n" word in relation to Jews. Zionists are NOT referring to Jews in any way, shape or form, yet you refuse to open your eyes to what the Jewish people are trying to tell you.

If you want to think that zionist and jew are one and the same, then you are willfully ignorant. That is not an implication...it is an observation.

Last edited by AreYouReady?; 01-19-2012 at 08:08 PM.
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  #30  
Old 01-19-2012, 08:18 PM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Zionism And American Politics.

And just for the record, I love the Jewish people. We as Christians are spiritual jews and are graphed into the natural tree. I stand with the Jewish people.

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. (Romans 11:16-18)

It is the ignorant (ignorant does not mean stupid) that assume that Jews and Zionists are one and the same. They are not and the Jewish people are explaining to us the difference.
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