Cult of the Past: Apostolic Identity Revealed?

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Oneness Pentecostalism is too defined.

The God of Oneness Pentecostals is limited. He can only move along predictable channels that church elders have carved out. In this way he is nothing more than an image created by man.

As Biblical knowledge has increased, and many of the standards of the past have been exposed as human creations with no scriptural foundation, organizational leaders have began appealing to our sense of reverence and respect for our ancestors instead of directing us to a more perfect way.

I believe God has rejected the ideals and methods of traditional Oneness Pentecostalism and is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh.

Survival of the fittest has a spiritual application. Only the strong survive, and the extra-biblical doctrines of Oneness Pentecostals are a poor substitute for spiritual strength.

For when I am weak, then I am strong.

False doctrine.

You are reading far too many business and self help manuals.
When we hear buzzwords from business and motivational; speakers, we smell some balogna/.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by coadie

No. After church is out on Sunday morning, people drive themselves home to lunch or work. Verbal abuse is common at employment also. The military has much more control than do these churches.

How many employers are verbally abusive whose employees cannot go find another job if they are uncomfortable or find an advocate higher in the company or outside the company who can stop the verbal abuse or work around it? How many employees put their lives-families, money, future-into their work? How many employees feel that if they leave their job, they will go to hell?

Coadie, you apparently don't understand the workings of abusive churches. In an abusive church, you don't leave on Sunday morning and drive to work or lunch. You go home and are afraid someone is looking in your windows, reporting to the pastor that they saw your bedpost through the curtain, so you must be "advertising". You go to work and are concerned that if you say anything that doesn't fit the church model, you'll be reported for an infraction and stood up and publicly rebuked. You go to lunch at a restaurant and worry through the prayer that it might not have been long enough or that you should have prayed louder because the church would expect that. You don't get away from a church like that just because you drive out of the parking lot.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by coadie

As a psychologist..

Originally Posted by coadie

No. After church is out on Sunday morning, people drive themselves home to lunch or work. Verbal abuse is common at employment also. The military has much more control than do these churches.

Originally Posted by coadie

You are reading far too many business and self help manuals.
When we hear buzzwords from business and motivational; speakers, we smell some balogna/.

When I hear common dismissals of abuses in churches, I smell bologna too. A true psychologist doesn't dismiss verbal abuse as something that's left behind when people leave the parking lot, nor do they excuse it in one place because it may also happen in another.

[Sabby]

Hi Coadie,

Glad we can talk about this. I'm a pastoral counselor as well. I think it's important to identify what this thread means to certain people. I am thankful beyond words for old time pentecostals that held fast to the "issue" of the name, and the reality of the baptism of the Holy Ghost beyond Azusa St.
The organization mentioned on this thread has-as far as church sovereignty is concerned- morphed into a couple of directions, and these have created cultic "opportunities" (for lack of a better term) in some of their churches.
I'll identify a couple of them.

1. The biggest identity issue facing the UPCI right now is whether or not they really believe in and will allow the 5-fold ministry affect, or if it will remain as it has morphed into being: a primarily PASTOR-driven organization. The organization has been labeled a "cult" because of there being too much power given/invested in the local pastor by the parent organization, and too little accountability on the local church level.
I for one don't believe the UPCI is a cult. However I believe that church officials from the district level to national "look the other way" in borderline "cultic" churches because of the financial investment.

Just an observation:
When the pastor of any local church is viewed as the "final authority" on every issue of life concerning members of the congregation it is "cultic".
Some examples of this are the way in which church finances are dealt with, the pastor's vision &/or building programs, how the pastor deals with questioning parishioners and his counseling practices, how the pastor speaks of people that have "left" the church, and when the pastor is above counsel himself.

I have heard of accounts like this, and years ago actually observed it. This is not a swipe at men of God that laid the groundwork for apostolic pentecost. In fact, in the newness of the revelations of those days, those men would probably not recognize the organization and what it has become.

2. The second issue the men of God in this organization have to deal with is the amount of financial/ministerial control exerted upon the local pastors by the parent organization to conform to by-laws. I know several good men that preached "the message" that Hazelwood wanted preached solely because they were members of the organization and confided to me later that they succumbed to peer pressure.

If I understand the thread correctly, it is a rebuke to those that want to live by the controls of the organization. I didn't take it as a slapdown of our founders.

[Sabby]

"Originally Posted by coadie
No. After church is out on Sunday morning, people drive themselves home to lunch or work. Verbal abuse is common at employment also. The military has much more control than do these churches"

Your last sentence reminded me of something I should have mentioned in my previous post on this thread. Living for God should NEVER be compared with the control the military has over a person's life. It's just not a good comparison. Pastoral authority is never to be confused with control.!

BTW, I am retired military.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by Sabby

Your last sentence reminded me of something I should have mentioned in my previous post on this thread. Living for God should NEVER be compared with the control the military has over a person's life. It's just not a good comparison. Pastoral authority is never to be confused with control.!

BTW, I am retired military.

And, BTW, thank you for your service.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Bruce Tuckman said that every group goes through five stages.

1. Forming
2. Storming
3. Norming
4. Performing
5. Adjourning

Are you sure you didn't know Norman Schwartzkopf? He was the original "Stormin' Normin"!

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by coadie

No. After church is out on Sunday morning, people drive themselves home to lunch or work. Verbal abuse is common at employment also. The military has much more control than do these churches.

In the spirit of ESPN's Not Top 10 I recommend this response.

[whoami]

Originally Posted by missourimary

When I hear common dismissals of abuses in churches, I smell bologna too. A true psychologist doesn't dismiss verbal abuse as something that's left behind when people leave the parking lot, nor do they excuse it in one place because it may also happen in another.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by missourimary

How many employers are verbally abusive whose employees cannot go find another job if they are uncomfortable or find an advocate higher in the company or outside the company who can stop the verbal abuse or work around it? How many employees put their lives-families, money, future-into their work? How many employees feel that if they leave their job, they will go to hell?

Coadie, you apparently don't understand the workings of abusive churches. In an abusive church, you don't leave on Sunday morning and drive to work or lunch. You go home and are afraid someone is looking in your windows, reporting to the pastor that they saw your bedpost through the curtain, so you must be "advertising". You go to work and are concerned that if you say anything that doesn't fit the church model, you'll be reported for an infraction and stood up and publicly rebuked. You go to lunch at a restaurant and worry through the prayer that it might not have been long enough or that you should have prayed louder because the church would expect that. You don't get away from a church like that just because you drive out of the parking lot.

Renda mentioned a book on boundaries.

It is so easy in some ways to leave a church. Do it in writing.
List your expections.

I will not accept any suggestions to my family of games of shunning
I will not accept gossip behind my back
Be honest and admit bedroom peeping is not acceptible if it is true.

When we put God first, family second and God's call to ministry is ahead of the local tribal chairman.

There are approopriate and innapropriate ways to say good bye.