MJ, Emergents, and Bishop Smith

[edjen01]

Originally Posted by Sam

Two pits we can fall into are:
1. dreaming about the "good old days" and trying to live on memories of things that really weren't all that good in the first place
2. dreaming about this huge revival which is just around the corner.

Thank God for the past. We found the Lord and He found us. He revealed truths over successive generations. But we can't drive a stake in the ground and tether ourselves to it and refuse to move on with the Holy Spirit. Now we are living in a day when God is pouring out His Spirit on all flesh. Thousands are coming to Jesus. It is estimated that there are 600 million Christians who consider themselves Charismatic or Pentecostal. It is my opinion that this is a "last day revival" --it's here now, step out into the rain and let it saturate you. Quit dreaming about the past and quit dreaming about the future, wake up and do something for God and receive from Him what He has for you.

[Esther]

What is missing today?

IMO I think it is the power of God. The power that when you pray for the sick they are healed. The power to raise the dead. The power to pray for the bound and see God set them free. Addiction should not be an issue in an Apostolic church. Emotional disstress should not be an issue in an Apostolic church.

I was thinking on this yesterday on the way to church what is different with todays generation. The only thing I could think of is this generation hasn't had to pay a price for the gospel. What I mean by that statement, is the old timers, talked about the all night prayer meetings, the many fast days, the rotten tomatoes being tossed at them, their children being whipped in school because they were "different".

Even going all the way back to the apostles they were perscuted for the sake of the gospel. Jesus is that gospel.

Do we preach Jesus enough?

Do we preach the greatest commandment enough and more so live it. For those who don't remember what that is...Love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, soul, mind...and the second is like unto it, love thy neighbor as thyself. (paraphased)

Part of the problem is folks don't love themselves these days, so how can they love their neighbor.

I agree with a lot that he had to say. We have become lovers of entertainment and it has crept into the churches.

I don't know about you but I have prayed for years, Lord keep me from deception. Deception can creep in with out you realizing it.

I can't imagine anyone who would say that they would "moonwalk" with MJ in heaven.

Large churches can easily build large egos. I'm not against large churches, but I think there can be a danger in it. Folks look to them as being leaders to follow instead of a pastor of a smaller church that has a strong prayer life, who may actually be more spiritual.

Again, not saying a pastor of a large church has no skills to lead, because obviously he has or he wouldn't have a large church.

But sometimes you have to ask at what price to this church become so large?

Just some thoughts.

[edjen01]

the idea that the "early church" reached the world is crazy!! they didn't even know that 2/3rds of the world existed.

there are more people fullfilling the Great Commission and bringing the Kingdom of God to life on planet earth today then ever before!!! WHAT AN AWESOME TIME TO BE ALIVE!!!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by edjen01

the idea that the "early church" reached the world is crazy!! they didn't even know that 2/3rds of the world existed.

there are more people fullfilling the Great Commission and bringing the Kingdom of God to life on planet earth today then ever before!!! WHAT AN AWESOME TIME TO BE ALIVE!!!

When Paul wrote his epistles from the Roman jail in AD 60/61 he stated that the Gospel had gone into the whole world and was preached to every creature under heaven. See Colossians chapter 1 and verses 6 and 23. As far as he knew, it had. Actually, on the Day of Pentecost (Sunday May 28 AD 30) there were people there "out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). So, as far as the first century church was concerned, they HAD reached every nation.

In our day and age with satellites, etc we can do a much greater job of fulfilling the great commission. Men like Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, and Reinhard Bonnke have preached the Gospel to more in a single meeting (with satellite, tv, radio, etc) than the Apostle Paul did in his day.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by jaamez

Sorry, Dan... I couldn't read the whole thing. It started to make me a little nauseous - as my nerves started to tighten because of years of hearing this moaning from pulpits. I agree to an extent with a concern for how worldly (materialistic, and fixated on Hollywood) Christians have become, and I think that too many churches in "the movement" have lost sight of their calling and are pursuing glitz and popularity rather than the simplicity of Christ.

But the fear tactics just make me sick. And the judgmental spirit makes me cringe. When will people understand that another "church service" and another "conference sermon" are not going to change the world? Once the emotional high of these sequestered meetings fades, it's back to business as usual.

Also, I don't agree that the early church preached "a salvation message." They preached Jesus Christ FIRST AND FOREMOST! The gospel has Jesus Christ at the center, not a formula. And it really gripes me to hear someone condemn those who are actually serving and doing (using "social gospel" to degrade and downplay what we are actually called to do) and exalting themselves as the lone defenders of truth. Wouldn't it be great if I never had to hear some preacher proclaim "we have the truth" while condemning all others who have a different point of view. Our arrogance will be our undoing for sure.

Sorry for the rambling...

Ok... I took some time to go back and read the entire note/blog. And I'm not really appalled like I expected to be. Yes, he uses a lot of fear tactics and the usual rhetoric, but I share much of his concern. I'm concerned with our fascination with Hollywood and NY Fashion and materialism. Also, I find it very hard to believe that a preacher would say that he planned to moonwalk in Heaven with MJ. Surely it was TIC. And I've NEVER heard anyone say they were baptizing in the name of Shazaam. That's ludicrous. He uses inflammatory devices to press his point, and may lose a little credibility for it, but it's not anything we're not all accustomed to.

I attended a Men's Conference in Xenia, OH a few years ago and heard one of the best messages of my life - and it literally changed me. Bro. Jerry Dean preached a message entitled "Intoxicated with Babylon" and pulled his text from Rev 17 - the story of the blasphemous woman.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
(emphasis mine)

John, "The Revelator", the "beloved", who had an intimate personal relationship with the Lord, in the middle of a prophetic vision from the Lamb Himself, was beside himself awestruck with the glitter and wonder of this woman who was "drunken with the blood of the saints." How easily the glamour of "worldliness" distracted John so that he wondered with great admiration. And we are no different.

All in all, while I'm not a fan of his style, I share Bro. Smith's burden and concern so I don't in this instance share your outrage, Dan.

[Apocrypha]

You have to know Bishop Smith. I do, and I also know his son. I know the AWCF quite well too.

The AWCF is a networking group... not a denomination. More of a chamber of commerce.

Bishop Smith isn't a rules based guy, he is a principles based guy. You will notice he didn't mention standards anywhere in there.. it would be impossible since he ministers in 100+ different denominations under the AWCF umbrella... they ALL have different things.

If you don't put in the assumption that he is talking about standards and look at the principles of what he is saying.. I agree... the social gospel by itself doesn't save... and the watering down of the church as a doctrine defending entity has opened it up to many problems like acceptance of open sin in churches where everyone just doesn't ask and still allow folks who are in violation of clear scriptural teachings to be participants.

I dont see the problem with this if you use proper context and see who is saying it. The man isn't a "standards" guy.. he is a principles guy... i know because I have had dinner with him, visited his church, and am friends with his son who took his church.

[Isaiah]

Originally Posted by DAII

I expect the world to refute these points; but, what wears on me is the growing debate among believers! They challenge and dispute sound doctrine and separation from the uncleanness of the world as being “old school, judgmental, and regressive.” To quote some, “that kind of preaching doesn’t work any longer!” When did God Change?

My Lord , My Lord such vigorous words of truth. Brother God has most certainly left a remnant of strong faithful, dedicated, unmoving, unbonding, convenantal men and women of God whom will not be moved away from the solid foundation the Word of God has set. Believe that! Hold to those words! My friend as Paul wrote so I write, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them" (2Timothy 3:14). God Bless YOU!

[oletime]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

From reading this commentary, I don't see where this is a "racial thing." He is making a valid point and is trying to ensure that he is not misperceived.

He realizes that the burden of communication is on him.


The points this man of God have expressed have been expressed by other men and women of God, black and white, Apostolic and Non-Apostolic alike.

He's concerned about the worldliness that has crept into the churches in his fellowship-- and rightfully so.

If there is a preacher that said, "we could baptize them in the name of ‘Shazaam’ and they would not care” the preacher should be held accountable for his statement.

Even in the best context I could think of, the statement should not have been made. In fact, it was only made because that preacher believes that!



Do you guys understand that we are engaged in a battle, a spiritual battle in a world that calls right wrong and wrong right?!

I like MJ as much as anyone else and his passig litterally made me sad. It shocked me and I was truly sad for days.


However, there was an faithful old lady in my church, who was employed as a Walm-Mart greeter part time, and was a praying, Holy Spirit filled woman.

I knew her, talked with her hugged her, worshipped our God with her.

When she died, I wasn't affected by her death as much as I was by MJ's!


This is my own condemnation. While reading his commentary, I took inventory of myself and I can clearly see that the influence of this world, the pressures, the everyday stuff dulls my sensitivity and yes, even my own desire at times to pray.

I think that our older preachers who are sounding the alarms are not completely off base.


Their wisdom should not be summarily dismissed.

Dan, the commentary of Bishop Smith is timely and valid for today.

Do you suggest it isn't?

Wise you are JD, Thanks ,the most shocking/funny thing to me, was when they wheeled him down the aisle and the choir burst forth with, The king is coming ,The king is coming, which the audience roundly and joyfully burst into with them, UNTIL they got to the lyric he"s coming for me, OOOP's guess that wasnt written for michael, dead silence.

[pelathais]

The good Bishop's concerns about "our" culture in general are well founded. I guess I must exist within a different sphere of influences however. No one I know and associate with closely in Christian fellowship has ever said Michael Jackson was anything like "The Prince of Peace," etc.

Going through my mind - and there's one pastor nearby who I visit who was actually heavily involved in the Rock Music scene before he came to Christ - but I can't think of ever hearing a single voice ever expressing praise or support for "MJ" and his "contributions" to our society - including among African American voices. I think the most frequent assessment over the years has always started with the word "Weird."

Maybe I need to get out more. Maybe again, I don't. Dunno.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

You have to know Bishop Smith. I do, and I also know his son. I know the AWCF quite well too.

The AWCF is a networking group... not a denomination. More of a chamber of commerce.

Bishop Smith isn't a rules based guy, he is a principles based guy. You will notice he didn't mention standards anywhere in there.. it would be impossible since he ministers in 100+ different denominations under the AWCF umbrella... they ALL have different things.

If you don't put in the assumption that he is talking about standards and look at the principles of what he is saying.. I agree... the social gospel by itself doesn't save... and the watering down of the church as a doctrine defending entity has opened it up to many problems like acceptance of open sin in churches where everyone just doesn't ask and still allow folks who are in violation of clear scriptural teachings to be participants.

I dont see the problem with this if you use proper context and see who is saying it. The man isn't a "standards" guy.. he is a principles guy... i know because I have had dinner with him, visited his church, and am friends with his son who took his church.

Thank for being one of the few to actually read his article and put it in context.