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  #21  
Old 03-30-2010, 07:22 AM
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Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
They all started off Pentecostal, at least in name. Crouch was or is AOG
I don't think they are now... they have "outgrown" them.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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  #22  
Old 03-30-2010, 08:03 AM
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Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?

If there is magic in the long uncut hair of a woman then how come no one is taking the clippings from the men and sprinkling them on the sick so they can recover? Would not the vow and commitment to short hair have the same power for a man? This whole Magic hair doctrine is nothing more than a smoke screen of hope to feed the woman of the UPCI so they have a reason for looking like they stepped out of the Sear's catalog from 1890.
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  #23  
Old 03-30-2010, 08:04 AM
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Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
I don't think they are now... they have "outgrown" them.
Most of them boast Pentecostal roots and all still speak in tongues and consider themselves charismatic pentecostal without a denomination label. Former UPCI men are numerous in their rank and file.
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  #24  
Old 03-30-2010, 01:51 PM
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Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
As far as false doctrine and imminent threats to the church goes... Do you think "Magic Hair" is an Achilles Heel of sorts?

For me, concerns about HMH "holy magic hair" is not at the top of the list.

I am far more concerned about radical sectarianism in the UPC.

We have evolved into something of a group that has difficulty seeing the work of Christ outside the Oneness Pentecostal movements.

Among the Oneness Pentecostals we even ostracize those who share the views of many of our founders on salvation.

The language and interpretation of the AOF also reflect this.

We reject those "Charismatics" yet many of our teachers still embrace teachings that we should have outgrown by now. How many are teaching

"God does not want you to be sick"?

or

"God wants to bless you with wealth"?

or

"You can have whatever you want tonight!"?

How many teach that they absolutely know the will of God in these things, and the missing component is simply the individuals faith?

Where is the sovereignty of God in all this?
These things bother me as well. For one thing, they show a real ignorance of the Bible and of the nature of God. I cringe when I hear things like those you have quoted.
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  #25  
Old 03-30-2010, 10:05 PM
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A.W. Bowman A.W. Bowman is offline
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Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?

We have redefined almost everything according to the whim of leadership elected and appointed by men to rule over other men - it is called an organization that decides who is, and who is not, called of God into a given ministry. It is generally defined as a 'good old boy's club' or just a family tradition.

For example

Holiness is what we do, not who we are.

It is our standards that separate us from the world, not our attitudes.

Those things that pertain to a man are defined as his pants, not his weapons, tools, etc, that De 22:5 identifies in the Hebrew language. (Hint: The verse does not say that a woman is not to wear the clothes or garments of a man. I can supply a Hebrew world view translation for those interested.)

Worship is our performance in church, as judged by a church leader, not the context within which we live our lives

'Good preaching' is when we feel good and experience an emotional high, not in how well the message contributes to improving our walk in the Spirit or improve our relationship with Christ or bring unity to the body.

Contributing (giving) to God is maintaining the local church building (or another building fund), not meeting the needs of those who attend there.

Tithing is the basic law of the church, where as many people who attend the church (10, 20, 50, 100 or more) are to give 10% of their resources to one man. This is not the biblical principle where eleven extended families provided the food requirements of one extended family - who were prohibited by law from working for their food. Also, out of this came food for the poor and even the 'non-Jews' who needed assistance. One has to wonder how it would be received if each family in a church brought 10% of their groceries and piled them on the platform (or in the church storehouse) - normally three to four times a year - as required by the law? But, I digress -

The primary qualification for ministry within the assembly is based on the amount and frequency of one's giving, not the call of God or one's spiritual gifting for the edification of the body.

And, the list goes on....

We enjoy a performance based religion, rather than a love based relationship.

God, because of His promises, owes us whatever we want, rather than we owe everything to God, with or without His promises. That is, we follow after God for what we can get out of Him, rather than for what God can get out of us - obedience.

Spiritual obedience is obeying the pastor, and if God happens to agree, so much the better. Yet, Obedience to God is accomplished only by first gaining the pastor's permission.

We have the Holy Ghost, and 'it' (not 'Him') has lead us into all truth. Even so, most folks only give lip service to the Spirit's leading, and seldom, if ever, actually walk in that Spirit.

We think another discussion (preaching/teaching) on holiness standards, how misguided the Trinitarians are, and Acts 2:38 is bringing to light the three central themes of Christianity.

We think that being a committed Christian is being in church whenever the doors are open - and 'having church', rather than simply being the living church (body of Christ) in the world (living stones).

We claim to follow the teaching of the Apostles, but except for a hand full of notes from Paul and a couple from Peter and James, in a few letters, we don't even know what it was the rest of the Apostles actually taught. - Hint: They taught what Jesus taught and commanded His disciples to teach, and only a few Apostolics know what Jesus taught, and most of that is without understanding!

Most Pentecostals don't even know what the day of Pentecost is or even why its important to the Christian faith. The experience of speaking in tongues is more important than the reality of the event. So, we try to recapture the experience of Pentecost (the Church of the Holy Feel Good) without ever knowing its spiritual reality or how to apply it to our lives to produce the fruit of the Spirit.

Back to the Spirit: The Spirit will lead us in all truth - how many church members can you witness concerning that they actually know where the Spirit is leading and is, in fact, following Him? Hint: Don't take anyone's word for it - test it for yourself!

I'm tired. So finally, if the Oneness, Apostolic Pentecostals are the new chosen people of God, how come we are so powerless? Fragmented (separated from even those within the same religious organization)? Righteous in our own eyes (we are going to heaven, Trinitarians are going to hell)? WE have the truth and teach 'sound doctrine', while everyone else teaches false doctrines, and are going to hell because of it. The problem with that position is that I find every preacher I have ever studied under make errors in their teaching (including me!). Therefore, by our own confession we are all guilty of teaching false doctrines (any teaching that contains errors is, by definition, false). So, even our judgments against others stands before God as a witness against us.

It really is time that we stop playing the Pharisee of Mt 23, and start playing the role of a saint of God, as in 1 Cor 14.
__________________
It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.

Last edited by A.W. Bowman; 03-30-2010 at 10:10 PM.
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  #26  
Old 03-30-2010, 10:13 PM
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Hoovie Hoovie is offline
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Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?

HaS! That is one powerful post. I wish you could preach this at large venues.

I would pay you my tithe... oh wait a min!! LOL!

Seriously, thank you.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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  #27  
Old 03-30-2010, 10:15 PM
A.W. Bowman's Avatar
A.W. Bowman A.W. Bowman is offline
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Location: East Texas
Posts: 1,132
Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?

A follow up note:

Not all is lost. Just taking a look around this forum and one can see a growing number of individuals, and perhaps even families, who are trading their organizational security for a very demanding (challenging) relationship with Jesus Christ.

Now, there is a novel idea! Think it might catch on?
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It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
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  #28  
Old 03-30-2010, 10:21 PM
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Neck Neck is offline
"It's Never Too Late"


 
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Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaShaliach View Post
We have redefined almost everything according to the whim of leadership elected and appointed by men to rule over other men - it is called an organization that decides who is, and who is not, called of God into a given ministry. It is generally defined as a 'good old boy's club' or just a family tradition.

For example

Holiness is what we do, not who we are.

It is our standards that separate us from the world, not our attitudes.

Those things that pertain to a man are defined as his pants, not his weapons, tools, etc, that De 22:5 identifies in the Hebrew language. (Hint: The verse does not say that a woman is not to wear the clothes or garments of a man. I can supply a Hebrew world view translation for those interested.)

Worship is our performance in church, as judged by a church leader, not the context within which we live our lives

'Good preaching' is when we feel good and experience an emotional high, not in how well the message contributes to improving our walk in the Spirit or improve our relationship with Christ or bring unity to the body.

Contributing (giving) to God is maintaining the local church building (or another building fund), not meeting the needs of those who attend there.

Tithing is the basic law of the church, where as many people who attend the church (10, 20, 50, 100 or more) are to give 10% of their resources to one man. This is not the biblical principle where eleven extended families provided the food requirements of one extended family - who were prohibited by law from working for their food. Also, out of this came food for the poor and even the 'non-Jews' who needed assistance. One has to wonder how it would be received if each family in a church brought 10% of their groceries and piled them on the platform (or in the church storehouse) - normally three to four times a year - as required by the law? But, I digress -

The primary qualification for ministry within the assembly is based on the amount and frequency of one's giving, not the call of God or one's spiritual gifting for the edification of the body.

And, the list goes on....

We enjoy a performance based religion, rather than a love based relationship.

God, because of His promises, owes us whatever we want, rather than we owe everything to God, with or without His promises. That is, we follow after God for what we can get out of Him, rather than for what God can get out of us - obedience.

Spiritual obedience is obeying the pastor, and if God happens to agree, so much the better. Yet, Obedience to God is accomplished only by first gaining the pastor's permission.

We have the Holy Ghost, and 'it' (not 'Him') has lead us into all truth. Even so, most folks only give lip service to the Spirit's leading, and seldom, if ever, actually walk in that Spirit.

We think another discussion (preaching/teaching) on holiness standards, how misguided the Trinitarians are, and Acts 2:38 is bringing to light the three central themes of Christianity.

We think that being a committed Christian is being in church whenever the doors are open - and 'having church', rather than simply being the living church (body of Christ) in the world (living stones).

We claim to follow the teaching of the Apostles, but except for a hand full of notes from Paul and a couple from Peter and James, in a few letters, we don't even know what it was the rest of the Apostles actually taught. - Hint: They taught what Jesus taught and commanded His disciples to teach, and only a few Apostolics know what Jesus taught, and most of that is without understanding!

Most Pentecostals don't even know what the day of Pentecost is or even why its important to the Christian faith. The experience of speaking in tongues is more important than the reality of the event. So, we try to recapture the experience of Pentecost (the Church of the Holy Feel Good) without ever knowing its spiritual reality or how to apply it to our lives to produce the fruit of the Spirit.

Back to the Spirit: The Spirit will lead us in all truth - how many church members can you witness concerning that they actually know where the Spirit is leading and is, in fact, following Him? Hint: Don't take anyone's word for it - test it for yourself!

I'm tired. So finally, if the Oneness, Apostolic Pentecostals are the new chosen people of God, how come we are so powerless? Fragmented (separated from even those within the same religious organization)? Righteous in our own eyes (we are going to heaven, Trinitarians are going to hell)? WE have the truth and teach 'sound doctrine', while everyone else teaches false doctrines, and are going to hell because of it. The problem with that position is that I find every preacher I have ever studied under make errors in their teaching (including me!). Therefore, by our own confession we are all guilty of teaching false doctrines (any teaching that contains errors is, by definition, false). So, even our judgments against others stands before God as a witness against us.

It really is time that we stop playing the Pharisee of Mt 23, and start playing the role of a saint of God, as in 1 Cor 14.
Very good my friend very good..
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  #29  
Old 03-30-2010, 10:25 PM
A.W. Bowman's Avatar
A.W. Bowman A.W. Bowman is offline
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Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
HaS! That is one powerful post. I wish you could preach this at large venues.

I would pay you my tithe... oh wait a min!! LOL!

Seriously, thank you.
Thank you - but I think just preached it in a large venue. And, the offering was right!

Even so, I remain the forum's grumpy old mountain man.
__________________
It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
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  #30  
Old 03-30-2010, 10:34 PM
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Fiyahstarter Fiyahstarter is offline
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Re: Anything More Important Than the HMH Debate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaShaliach View Post
Thank you - but I think just preached it in a large venue. And, the offering was right!

Even so, I remain the forum's grumpy old mountain man.
WoW. Just WoW!

Thanks for that!

Shout it from the mountaintops!
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