Merry Mithra?

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yeah people just are not valiant for the truth. Then they wonder why our Churches are so FAR, FAR away from what the New Testament Church is meant to be.

Well, I understand what you are saying, but I would hope the church of the last days looks more like the "glorious church" Paul wrote about and less like the divided and strife ridden church of the NT.

But, what it all comes down to is intent. Christmas is, whether we want it to be or not, an American holiday. Well, at least our version of it is anyway. So, we are stuck with it- with all of its glitz and commercialization. And I agree. It seems its becoming a Christless holiday. Jesus is hardly mentioned, replaced by ol' St. Nick. "Merry Christmas" is so... so...yesterday. A much more inclusive greeting, "Happy Holidays" is more acceptable today.

It should be the Christians INTENT to use every available opportunity to tell the world about Jesus. We do at Easter, don't we? And Thanksgiving. Even Halloween is used to tell people about the evils of the devil. But, when it comes to Christmas some seem, ironically enough, to join forces with those who want to stamp Christ out of Christmas. I heard of one church who refuses to use the word "Christmas" They call it "X-mas". Unbelievable. They have locked arms with the very people who want Christmas to be just another secular holiday. They, too, want to remove "Christ" from Christmas just as the atheists desire to do.

What better time to tell children about the birth of Jesus then on the day that is set aside to commemorate His Birth? When my grandchildren were younger, we'd gather around the tree (yes, the tree) and, before we opened the first gift, we read the Christmas Story. So, IMO, whatever I do to put Christ back into Christmas is a good thing.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Wise men weren't there at his birth.

right, they arrived at a house some time later.

traditionally we lump them all together --shepherds, Magi, angel, stable, animals, Mary and Joseph

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Some (including myself) are offended at the traditions concerning the dress code. They get upset at the traditions such as women not cutting hair. Men not being allowed to wear a beard. No one is allowed to wear short sleeves or a wrist watch.

Now how can some of those people who attack THESE traditional doctrines of men then proceed to play right along with Santa and the Christmas tree and the idea Yeshua was born on Dec. 25?

We can speak out against the "dress code" and "holiness standards" as non-Biblical traditions because they are "required" as part of some kind of "plan of salvation" in some Churches. The Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Mothers' Day, Veterans' Day, etc. traditions are not "required" to obtain and maintain a state of grace, or a state of being rapture ready, or a state of being saved.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Mithra was the Indio/Persian god of light, born on what we call Dec 25th.

Many of his legends parallel what Christianity call Christ Mass.

Most non-Catholic theologians agree that Jesus could not of been born in December but most likely Sept or first week of Oct.

Does it bother anyone that the customs that Christianity calls Christ Mass is mainly pagan in origin, or is it just the tradition that matters?

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Just wondering.

Yes, many pagan religions have their "gods" born on December 25th. However, the choice of December 25th has the day to celebrate Christ's birthday comes from the Eastern Church's choice of when Easter took place. They Eastern church chose March 25th as the day Jesus died. Judaic Christians believed in a teaching known as "Integral Age". This meant that they believed that the Messiah and prophets of the LORD would living the "fullness of their days", indicating that they would die on the day they were conceived. This led them to believe that Christ was conceived on March 25th --- nine months from March 25th is December 25th. This is why the ancient Church took this date as the date to celebrate Christ's birth. In essence, the choice of December 25th is of Judeo-Christian origin.

Many have asked, why then did pagans also choose December 25th to worship their pagan "saviors". I believe that if one looks at it logically it's because every religion has it's origin in a single ancient truth. You see, after the flood mankind only had one religion. After Babylon when mankind spread out throughout the world the religious traditions became twisted and polytheism began. This is why EVERY religion has a story like Adam and Eve, a Noah, a flood story, and an explanation of our confusion of tongues. All these corrupted streams of pagan thought have their origin in a single divine revelation that was pure... and preserved by the Hebrew people. So it can be said that ALL of mankind understood that one day a savior would come. And all of mankind had an idea of the season of his birth. Jesus fulfilled not just ancient Hebrew prophecy... but what mankind knew all along.

Jesus is the Savior of the ENTIRE world and ALL men.

[Aquila]

Take into consideration the Magi. They were Persian astrologers...most likely Zoroastrianists. They were a royal class of ancient Persia who served the King of Persia. These royal mystics no doubt inherited the writings and surmisings of Daniel who served Babylon after Persia conquered Babylon. These pagan Magi were able to connect pagan astrology to the prophesies of the Hebrew Bible to pin point the birth and location of the Messiah. When these royal Persian mystics determined to find the one born "King of the Jews" they rounded up their scrolls, students, servants, and guards. Not only that but they gathered treasure to offer the King of the Jews --- gold, frankincense, and myr. These were very treasured items that hold symbolic importance. However, this most expensive treasure would have also required a sizable military escort. It's possible that the entire Persian caravan of the Magi included over 200 people, many of them Royal Military Guard. This is why the appearance of the Magi terrified Herod and left all of Jerusalem greatly troubled...

Matthew 2:1-3
1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
3When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

This was brewing into an international incident that would leave Herod humiliated... for he and he alone claimed to be "king of the Jews". And so Herod called all the priests and the chief scribes together to ask a question...

Matthew 2:4-6
4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
5And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

After Herod heard where the Messiah was to be born Herod inquired as to when the star appeared. It is appearance that perhaps the star appeared nearly two years prior to the Magi's arrival in Judea for we see Herod's course of action...

Matthew 2:16
16Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet....

It would appear that the shepherds visited Christ at his birth (account found in Luke)... while the Magi found him nearly two years later. No doubt the gold, frankincense, and myr provided funding for Joseph and Mary's flight to Egypt and their getting settled their for a short period.

But what's interesting is how Hebraic prophecy and pagan mysticism intersect regarding Christ's birth.

So it shouldn't surprise us if even the pagans knew when Christ would be born.

[Trouvere]

Originally Posted by Sam

We celebrate Christmas and we believe in Santa Claus
but Jesus is the reason for the season.

This is one of my grandchildren (age 3) on Christmas Eve (last night) looking at the manger scene.

This actually was not posed.

uh...I hate to be the one to tell you this Sam but Santa is not real. I hope you
realized that when you did not get what was on your wish list or else you must have been on the other list.lol.

[Trouvere]

Originally Posted by Sam

We can speak out against the "dress code" and "holiness standards" as non-Biblical traditions because they are "required" as part of some kind of "plan of salvation" in some Churches. The Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Mothers' Day, Veterans' Day, etc. traditions are not "required" to obtain and maintain a state of grace, or a state of being rapture ready, or a state of being saved.

Go to the greek Brother. Modest dress is the same word for decent.
Decent dress is required by the Bible to be saved.
I beg to differ. Salvation is repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, Having the Holy Ghost or Resurrection Spirit on the inside but then add to it this.....a life of obedience. You are not saved until you arrive. He will say if you are...well done my good and faithful servant enter into your reward. If you have not been obedient to the whole word and done all it says and the voice of Jesus for your
own personal life you will be lost.Its not just believe and you are saved. If you are to be saved you must obey.It is up to you to listen to Jesus for your own self.The Bible says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. That is the problem people have when they begin to listen to man over Jesus. They remove the voice of Jesus in their lives and then complain when their flesh doesn't like what man preaches. Well if you set a king up over you then don't expect the voice of a prophet or the Voice of Jesus to speak to you like He did the prophets. That is the problem with pentecostal churches being denominal. Its a crying shame.

[MissBrattified]

The real meaning of Christmas is whatever meaning WE choose to give it in our home. No one else gets to determine that, or project their own interpretation of what constitutes Christmas upon us.

I grew up in a home where Christmas was a big no-no, and it was one of the few things I really disliked--even resented--about my upbringing. I can remember several very negative incidents from my childhood where my father had heated arguments with family members, and not only spoiled their holidays, but ours as well. I remember a humiliating day in school when we were exchanging gifts and I was the only kid who wasn't allowed to take a gift to share. I was so hurt and embarrassed that I didn't have anything to give, even though I still received a gift.

To me, spending time with my family and making ANY holiday (e.g., time when everyone is on vacation and spending time together) a joyous occasion is WAY more important than making sure everyone acknowledges a holiday in the same way I do. (Or trying to dissuade them from acknowledging it at all.)

It's one thing to choose to not celebrate a day yourself; it's quite another to go around upsetting other people about what they choose to celebrate.

I'm pretty sure God didn't intend that:

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

Go to the greek Brother. Modest dress is the same word for decent.
Decent dress is required by the Bible to be saved.
I beg to differ. Salvation is repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, Having the Holy Ghost or Resurrection Spirit on the inside but then add to it this.....a life of obedience. You are not saved until you arrive. He will say if you are...well done my good and faithful servant enter into your reward. If you have not been obedient to the whole word and done all it says and the voice of Jesus for your
own personal life you will be lost.Its not just believe and you are saved. If you are to be saved you must obey.It is up to you to listen to Jesus for your own self.The Bible says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. That is the problem people have when they begin to listen to man over Jesus. They remove the voice of Jesus in their lives and then complain when their flesh doesn't like what man preaches. Well if you set a king up over you then don't expect the voice of a prophet or the Voice of Jesus to speak to you like He did the prophets. That is the problem with pentecostal churches being denominal. Its a crying shame.

Hey this is good!

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

Go to the greek Brother. Modest dress is the same word for decent.
Decent dress is required by the Bible to be saved.
I beg to differ. Salvation is repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, Having the Holy Ghost or Resurrection Spirit on the inside but then add to it this.....a life of obedience. You are not saved until you arrive. He will say if you are...well done my good and faithful servant enter into your reward. If you have not been obedient to the whole word and done all it says and the voice of Jesus for your
own personal life you will be lost.Its not just believe and you are saved. If you are to be saved you must obey.It is up to you to listen to Jesus for your own self.The Bible says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. That is the problem people have when they begin to listen to man over Jesus. They remove the voice of Jesus in their lives and then complain when their flesh doesn't like what man preaches. Well if you set a king up over you then don't expect the voice of a prophet or the Voice of Jesus to speak to you like He did the prophets. That is the problem with pentecostal churches being denominal. Its a crying shame.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Hey this is good!

Yes, it is.