Missouri Molestation Case

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

You KNOW this man will be praying through while he is marched to his cell.

Generally speaking child molesters and divorcees are not placed into ministry by the UPC even if these things went on before conversion, right?

The theory is that there is too much risk involved to place a former molester in a position of authority.

So would the UPC work with this guy at all if he "sees the light" and starts to minister in prison? The risk isn't there.

(I realize that he was living a double life, and is seen as a deceiver and spiritually unstable, but hypothetically speaking)

I have seen men who have been married several times be ordained in the UPC. You did say generally speaking. I've seen it happen both when the marriage was before their conversion and after. I'm not affliated with the UPC and am no way demeaning those who are, but am curious about the official stand on this. If the stand is for ordaining only those who were married prior to their conversion and are now remarried, I know that this is not enforced. Men who've had multiple wives after conversion are pastoring, but maybe it is rare.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by HADDOCK

That was my understanding. Actually I believe in some states ANY person is required to report. I also understand that UPC ministers are instructed and possibly even have seminars in regard to these issues.

Well, in the case mentioned, the UPC minister did not report it. The matter eventually is reported by someone - a few years later actually and the man is indicted, arrested and eventually enters a guilty plea and now is required to register as a sex offender. He got 3 years, but all probation. slap

When the incident happened many folks "assumed" he had had an affair and it was left at that. This family had other children, boys and girls, in the home and yet church families were not warned that if they allowed their child to go to the home even for overnight stays, that there was a sexual child molester there.

The child victim was made out as the villan.

The legal technicalities may differ from state to state. In my state "clergy" are specifically identified in law as having a responsibility to report. A few people went to jail when that was first passed several years ago- not long sentences in prison, I believe; but long enough to make an example and get the word out.

Ethically, of course, I think we all agree you must step up and do something to stop the abuse and protect the innocent.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by FRINGE_NUTTER

I have seen men who have been married several times be ordained in the UPC. You did say generally speaking. I've seen it happen both when the marriage was before their conversion and after. I'm not affliated with the UPC and am no way demeaning those who are, but am curious about the official stand on this. If the stand is for ordaining only those who were married prior to their conversion and are now remarried, I know that this is not enforced. Men who've had multiple wives after conversion are pastoring, but maybe it is rare.

For years the manual made special reference to "victims" of divorce. A board had discretion in cases where the minister, or minister-to-be was the "victim." I believe that language still exists.

[Subdued]

Originally Posted by Subdued

From what I read, he requested to be baptized in Jesus' name, but the minister was Trinitarian & told him that he baptizes in the name of FSHG and convinced Dahmer that this was the correct way to baptize. This was, apparently, while he was in prison. I'll try to find the link/story in the a.m. & post it.

Here's a quote from: www.adherents.com/people/pd/Jeffrey_Dahmer.html

"Jeff was concerned about the baptismal 'formula' to use. I normally say, 'I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for the forgiveness of your sins.' He had been told that baptism was invalid unless the name of Jesus was the only name mentioned. After studying with him about this matter, he agreed to allow me to us the words with which I was comfortable. After Jeff changed into the baptistry robe, I went in and baptized him."

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Originally Posted by pelathais

For years the manual made special reference to "victims" of divorce. A board had discretion in cases where the minister, or minister-to-be was the "victim." I believe that language still exists.

Does this mean if the man is not the "victim", he is not supposed to be ordained according to what's written in the articles or manual? Forgive me for not knowing what to call the UPC Rulebook. Is ordaining or not ordaining a man a local decision?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by FRINGE_NUTTER

Does this mean if the man is not the "victim", he is not supposed to be ordained according to what's written in the articles or manual? Forgive me for not knowing what to call the UPC Rulebook. Is ordaining or not ordaining a man a local decision?

I'm not UPC but I thought the decision to ordain or allow to continue in ministry after a divorce or an affair was up to the local district.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

That's not what I was saying. Child molesters, along with other exceedingly twisted felons, end up dead. The "regular" criminals, robbers, killers, hetero rapists, they detest the "unnatural" and the child predators.

Jeffery Dahmer fell on his own fork . . . . fifty seven times . . . . in the federal pen in Terre Haute.

Don't want to sound cruel, but maybe that is better justice than what the court system could give out.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Amos

We are required by law to report it.

I do not make exceptions on that one.

I agree with laws like that.
I do not think the "sanctity of the confession booth" or clergy privilege should apply here.

[Sam]

as members of the prayer team at the church I attended from 1992 until last year we were told that any abuse had to be reported to the authorities. If we heard anyone confess or request prayer about abuse, we had to tell them that it had to be reported. We would tell the person that and give him/her a chance to report it and if they did not immediately report it then we had to report it.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by FRINGE_NUTTER

Does this mean if the man is not the "victim", he is not supposed to be ordained according to what's written in the articles or manual? Forgive me for not knowing what to call the UPC Rulebook. Is ordaining or not ordaining a man a local decision?

As Sam has pointed out, it is the job of the local (usually state-wide or thereabouts in size) district to license and ordain.

And yes, at least going a few years back, if a man's wife backslid and walked out on him, he would not be necessarily "kicked out." He would certainly end up meeting the board to talk about it. If the board was satisfied then the man would not loose his ministry due to the actions of his wife (or vice versa). Of course if the minister in question was something of a trouble maker it could be that this would be the "straw that breaks the camel's back."

But the decision is local (at the district level) as long as the district board is following the general guidance of the UPCI Manual.

To answer your other question (sort of?): "The Manual" of the UPCI contains "the rules" that every minister is to follow. These can be broken down:

The Articles of Faith: what the UPC teaches and believes to be necessary for salvation and thus, also for Christian fellowship. Every minister is "expected" to preach, believe and practice the Articles of Faith. They are supposed to (in one way or another) get their congregations on the same page as the AoF.

The Judicial Procedure: This spells out how differences among ministers, among districts and other bodies and among officials are to be worked out. Basically, you must follow a Matthew 18 pattern for conflict resolution and the org will help if called upon to provide arbiters, etc.

The Local Church Constitution: What every local assembly must do to become and remain affiliated with the UPCI. Local UPC churches may or may not be affiliated." It's up to them. The trend has been that most churches have become affiliated to protect their property, etc.

And then there's more organizational stuff: departments, endorsed schools and ministries (like Tupelo's and Lighthouse Ranch) etc. And of course every resolution that has ever been passed unless it was subsequently done away with by subsequent resolutions and a series of "Position Papers."