John3 and Romans2: Part2

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Thx for your inputs. Sorry you have to go, Amanah, but look at that ladies and gentlemen. Look at the timing of departure. It’s true that I keep repeating myself, not adding anything new. .

But it's suspiciously convenient to leave the kitchen when things are getting hot. Did you notice that Amanah avoids answering my question to her, post 263? Now, where's that emoji that shows a dog, tail between its legs, running away?


About that child, the one one who ate the cheese you had cut off the block, intending it for yourself. When your back is turned your child eats it, upsetting you. "Why'd you eat my cheese?", you demand, and they answer "you never said not to eat it. I thought I could take it." And you know they are right. You never spoke the cheese law and being just you don't judge by a cheese law that doesn't exist. But what if you had made a cheese law and the kid heard it but another of your kids comes from outside the house, grabs the cheese and eats it, but never heard your cheese law. Do you come down hard on that kid? Of course not. Even though you had made a cheese law you don't apply the cheese law on those who haven't heard. That's only common sense. But listening to many on this thread who cast away common sense, instead rigidly applying gospel law without it, these condemn to hell all those who haven't heard the gospel because they say that the gospel is the only way provided for salvation. Well, YEAH, it's the only provided for those who hear and all hearing but refusing will see their sin dragging them into hell. But not everyone hears. Paul shows us some who have never heard, but living right by the conscience, admitted to heaven. There are those in this thread who are eager to d.mn these living right by the only God-given method available to them, the conscience, and thus show us an unjust God, throwing out common sense by it. Shame on anyone doing so. That doesn't describe the just God, the Lord Jesus, the Bible shows. Stop showing the Lord in this light.

There will be some that will say the cheese analogy doesn't describe God, because he is never seen as turning his back or jumping on kids for a bit of cheese as a self-centered parent would. But that's what they do, ignoring the gist of an argument, nit-picking on details to show the author of the cheese story in a shady way, because they have an agenda which requires them to do so. Sadly we read what they say by these methods, wasting our time on time reading irrelevant words, if we want to keep up on our reading.

It's true that I haven't responded to all the arguments others have put forward, especially those which focus on the gospel (which I 100% believe in and they rightly describe) of those who have heard, but ignoring them when the thrust of my arguments are with those who have never heard. It is as frustrating to seemingly have the main part of your argument ignored as these presenters are in my ignoring their arguments. But time restraints compound the issue with not responding, making them not possible. Sorry, my apologies to all I've frustrated for this reason. See what I did there? I gave Amanah an easy out for not replying to the question. She can now say she's too busy.

I just went through this post. If we go through all of Amanah’s discussions with you in this thread, she is nothing but kind.

Don, are you on medication?

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I just went through this post. If we go through all of Amanah’s discussions with you in this thread, she is nothing but kind.

Don, are you on medication?

Yes, this is true, she was everything but unkind. If you get the impression that I was unkind -- I'm sorry. I apologize to Amanah. I didn't want to be unkind but did want to deliberately convey that a key point, a question, was ignored at a convenient time (convenient to her not answering it, because the only answer that could be given showed her contentions wrong -- why leave when a short answer would take nothing to do before leaving?) I used the donkey-emoji to reciprocate her use of it on me. I said what I said, not to be unkind but to point out the obvious -- truth shows her contentions wrong and she is running from facing up to it, when she should be facing it. I mean no one any harm except when exposing attitudes and actions which are against judging the Word/others rightly.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Yes, this is true, she was everything but unkind. If you get the impression that I was unkind -- I'm sorry. I apologize to Amanah. I didn't want to be unkind but did want to deliberately convey that a key point, a question, was ignored at a convenient time (convenient to her not answering it, because the only answer that could be given showed her contentions wrong -- why leave when a short answer would take nothing to do before leaving?) I used the donkey-emoji to reciprocate her use of it on me. I said what I said, not to be unkind but to point out the obvious -- truth shows her contentions wrong and she is running from facing up to it, when she should be facing it. I mean no one any harm except when exposing attitudes and actions which are against judging the Word/others rightly.

Don, as Sister Amanah stated in her post. We are at a stalemate. Therefore, we should take those words and consider furthering this discussion as futile. There is nothing profitable which will come from our continuance on this subject.

Take up another topic and we will be glad to join in.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Don, no one is agreeing with you. Also when did GOD tell you that He agrees with you? Because He doesn't.




Well, well, well, sorry Donnie my boy. But once again you are WRONG!
You actually have the Midas touch in reverse. We will wait for your apology.

https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.co...6&postcount=16 I too was aware of that post, but thanks for pointing it out for others. Its got good stuff. Apologies will come when my wrong doing is shown. But the post does not give Esaias's answer to my direct question: Does the Lord d.mn to hell those baptized but not yet receiving the Spirit, when they have had their sins forgiven/remitted. Why does Esaias avoid answering this direct question? Well, we know why because the obvious answer (yes, they go to heaven) conflicts with the stance he and yourself believe -- that the only access to heaven is by the complete new birth. But Paul, and I agree with Paul, shows otherwise. A just God does not condemn people who do everything they know to live right. Are you confusing these with some who've heard but choose not to believe? Your narrow, rigid view of God's justice disallows righteous people an entrance to heaven, d.mning people who love God and are baptized. But you can stop doing this today, starting to show a God who is just but by no means acquitting the guilty. Agree with what Ro5.13 shows: God does not judge those without the Word as though they had it. Those without it are judged by the means which he infused into everyman with the image of God -- the internal moral code of the conscience. If you insist on calling this God-given method 'salvation by good works', knock yourself out if you'd like, but responding to God's ways appropriately are not salvation by good works. Its faith and obedience.

But I've already said that before. Perhaps there will come a time when you accept it. Why not today?



We didn't write the Bible. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. You got a prayer room? I suggest you use it, and maybe you'll figure out that we aren't your problem. You just need a good dose of the Holy Ghost. Maybe after a few days of some snot bubbles and tears, you'll have a come to Jesus meeting.



God does have a forgiving attitude, and His mercy endureth forever. Like I said, you have a very carnal and narrow view of Jesus Christ. You believe that men can be saved separate from the Gospel. Saved by their own righteousness (Romans 10:3). Again, I implore you to find a place to seek the Holy Ghost.



Don, there is no angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. Jiminy Cricket will not lead long nosed puppets to heaven. They'll just end up in the belly of a whale. You believe the God of the Bible to be flawed, unfair, ridged, and, unmerciful. But see yourself as right living and God wrong intentioned.

You are just a run of the mill religious Christian, trying to make the narrow way, the broad way. Or I'm a Christian who reads the Bible, including Ro2.12-16 and Ro5.13, sharing with some who've ignored these verses, what it says with my fellow Christians.

The sheep hear Jesus' voice and you they won't follow. Following me would be a mistake but following the Word rightly interpretted would be a blessing.

Hey, did I mention that the Stanley Cup is in Fort Lauderdale? . Sure, but don't forget to be thankful for all the Canadians on the team. They couldn't have won without them.

.

Lets all say God bless, Evangelist Benincasa. He answered the call when many don't. Its not easy being a preacher of the Gospel.

God bless Amanah who takes the time, much time, to study to present the Word to her church group.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Esaias

For Don:

Well said.

Thanks for replying.

But this doesn't respond to the situation and in which I had hoped you would tell all what you believe. Your contentions in this thread are understood by me to say that the only means to access heaven is the new birth. Do those who have only been baptized but not having yet received the Holy Ghost go to heaven or hell, when their sins are forgiven/remitted? You avoided to answer this question, perhaps purposely, more than once. It contradicts your rigid theology. Will you, like Amanda, now turn tail, refusing to answer? I think so, but prove me wrong. Esaias will be able to say truthfully he responded to my question but everyone knows you've again dodged being direct. Its time to include Ro2.12-16/the conscience/Ro5.13 in your theology, making it possible for you to openly answer questions like these. Do it today. Plz let me know when you do.

[Amanah]

The Holy Ghost is the earnest of our inheritance, which is eternal life. Without the Holy Ghost, we will not be resurrected from our natural body to our immortal spiritual body:

- Ephesians 1:13-14 (ESV): In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

- 2 Corinthians 5:5 (ESV): He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

- Romans 8:9-11 (ESV): You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

- 1 Corinthians 15:44-49 (ESV): It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, 'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

These Scriptures highlight that:

- The Holy Ghost is the guarantee or earnest of our inheritance (Ephesians 1:13-14. 2 Corinthians 5:5).
- Our inheritance is eternal life (Romans 8:9-11).
- Without the Holy Ghost, we will not be resurrected from our natural body to our spiritual body (Romans 8:9-11. 1 Corinthians 15:44-49).
.

[Amanah]

With the understanding that the Holy Ghost is the earnest of our inheritance and necessary for resurrection, let's interpret Romans 2:12-16:

Romans 2:12-16 (ESV):

For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

In this passage, Paul is emphasizing that having the law (the written code) is not enough; one must also have the Spirit (the earnest of our inheritance) to be justified. The Gentiles, who do not have the written law, may still be justified if they follow the law written on their hearts (their conscience), which is a result of the Holy Ghost working in them.

In verse 16, Paul mentions "my gospel," which includes the message of the Holy Ghost being the earnest of our inheritance. He is saying that on judgment day, God will judge the secrets of men (their thoughts and intentions) by obedience to Christ in them.

With this understanding, Romans 2:12-16 emphasizes the importance of having the Holy Ghost in our lives, not just the written law, to be justified and resurrected to eternal life.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

But it's suspiciously convenient to leave the kitchen when things are getting hot. Did you notice that Amanah avoids answering my question to her, post 263? Now, where's that emoji that shows a dog, tail between its legs, running away?

Oops, the question is not in post 263.

[Amanah]

Hell:

- The concept of hell as a place of eternal torment is a Greek pagan Platonic construct, not found in the Bible.
- The Bible describes hell as a place of destruction and annihilation, not eternal suffering (Matthew 10:28. 2 Thessalonians 1:9).

Immortality of the Soul:

- The Bible does not teach the immortality of the soul. In fact, it says that only Jesus currently has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).
- The idea of an immortal soul comes from Greek pagan philosophy, not the Bible.

Resurrection to Immortality and Eternal Life:

- The Bible promises resurrection to immortality and eternal life for believers (1 Corinthians 15:53-54. 2 Timothy 1:10).
- This resurrection will occur when Jesus returns and gives us new, glorified bodies (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, Philippians 3:21).

Scripture References:

- Matthew 10:28 (ESV): Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
- 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (ESV): They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
- 1 Timothy 6:16 (ESV): Who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
- 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 (ESV): For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory.
- 2 Timothy 1:10 (ESV): That is, in Christ Jesus our Lord, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
- 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (ESV): So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
- Philippians 3:21 (ESV): Who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

[Amanah]

"Conditional Immortality" is a biblical concept that immortality is not inherent to humanity, but rather a gift granted by God to those who believe in Him and obey the gospel. John 3:16 states, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

In this context, the choice presented in the Bible is not between heaven and hell, as hell is a Platonic construct with no biblical basis. Instead, the choice is between annihilation (perishing) and everlasting life. Those who reject God's offer of salvation will ultimately face annihilation, while those who accept it will receive the gift of everlasting life.

This understanding emphasizes the importance of faith in Jesus Christ as the means to attain immortality and eternal life. It also highlights the consequences of rejecting God's offer, which is not eternal suffering in hell, but rather annihilation.

In essence, conditional immortality affirms that immortality is a conditional gift granted to believers, while annihilation awaits those who reject God's offer of salvation. This perspective aligns with the biblical narrative and emphasizes the significance of faith in Jesus Christ for eternal life.