Where did I say that I have abandoned Faith? I have Faith, every single day. I just don't believe in YOUR kind of Faith.
Your Faith wants me to continue in the hopeless realm of accepting things that never happen. This not only discourages countless people, but shows how Faith is abused and misrepresented by Religion(s).
For 36 years, I have been in more prayer lines than I can remember, with preachers yelling and screaming for people to come and get their healing. I was even a pastor for almost 20 years, laying hands on the sick, hoping for the healing that was supposed to happen; yet, I have never observed 1 healing. Not even 1!
People would stand and shout that they were healed, but I watched these same people a few days or weeks later, go right back to square one; no healing.
Shall we talk about Prophecies? It is so easy to say something when the emotional clock is ticking, especially during an Apostolic service where people ride the back of their feelings. But when the chips were down, these same Prophecies went by the wayside, never to be really talked about again. People just acted like they never heard it, or they made excuses of why the Prophecies didn't happen.
I remember when a Foreign Missionary came to our large Church, boasting of all the great healings that took place in Africa while he was the pastor there. Later on, when we had moved away from that Church, my new pastor, who has been in the UPCI for 70 years now, told me that those stories were all made up, and that this man was no longer in the UPCI.
I danced! I shouted! I was elated that God could grow new legs on a young boy who was born with no legs! My Faith went through the roof, and I told everyone about this man's stories! Then I find out, it was nothing but LIES!
Mike, that's the Faith you can have, but I no longer tell and give people outlandish ideas that leave them sick after they are prayed for, where they think they are still ill because they lack Faith! This is total manipulation and the tactic of Religions fury when we question why something didn't happen, when it was supposed to happen, "IF", we have Faith!
Kudos to you, NSF, I appreciate your honesty.
__________________
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
I remember when a Foreign Missionary came to our large Church, boasting of all the great healings that took place in Africa while he was the pastor there. Later on, when we had moved away from that Church, my new pastor, who has been in the UPCI for 70 years now, told me that those stories were all made up, and that this man was no longer in the UPCI.
I danced! I shouted! I was elated that God could grow new legs on a young boy who was born with no legs! My Faith went through the roof, and I told everyone about this man's stories! Then I find out, it was nothing but LIES!
. . .!
We had a revival once where the visiting preacher told us about people who were raised from the dead in his services. RAISED from the DEAD! Well, the best he could do for us that night was a leg lengthening "miracle".
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Of course I could have been "offkey"! I am a mere fallible human! And your God wouldn't grant this fallible human's request for some reason -- and I'm sure it was a very good reason -- and he won't even tell me where I went wrong! I don't think he has told my folks, either, when their prayers for my brother's healing of cancer failed, and those of many other family member's and friends'. There must have been thousands of prayers (and at least one "word form the Lord" that said he would be healed), and I'm not exaggerating. Were every one of them "offkey"? Did we not get what we asked for because we asked amiss? EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US?
We had a revival once where the visiting preacher told us about people who were raised from the dead in his services. RAISED from the DEAD! Well, the best he could do for us that night was a leg lengthening "miracle".
I had no experiences like you did over having faith in what the bible teaches. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. So you can believe what you want, speaking about belief. I saw more miracles and more answers to prayer the more I lived by faith. And it continues that way to this day.
Are you so correct in your thoughts and perspective that you maintain there is no way you could have been offkey with what you thought was exerting faith? Again, I had nothing happen to me like you did. Just the opposite. Seriously. But I am not here to convince you of anything. Just telling my side of the story like you are. Believe I am giving a true report or not. Doesn't change anything.
Mike, I have made a bold accusation against you. Would you like me to apologize? Tell you what. Give me your church's address and I will visit, with someone who could really use a healing. I'll at least bring video cameras, but I'll also invite the local media. They might be interested. If your prayer of faith is effectual (i.e., if the healing actually happens, and isn't answered with that famous "No"), I will rescind my accusation (even though one healing doesn't prove that none of your previous claims were bogus -- I'll be generous) and apologize, on video then and there, and here on AFF. (If I haven't been banned. )
And I will post the video here.
Or, of course, you could decline this little challenge (which really shouldn't pose any difficulty for you at all), and we can all judge for ourselves why you would do that. You could explain why, of course. That should be interesting.
So, what do you say? Sound like fun? Sure it does!
Now, of course, if the person who wants a healing isn't actually healed, it could be devastating. But I'll find a volunteer (at least try) who I'll brief on the situation. I'll be open and honest about it. I'll say there is someone who claims many miraculous healings, and that I don't believe him, but maybe he's right and maybe you will be healed. If you are not, please don't let it bother you too much. You must know there are many hucksters out there, some on TV, many more not on TV, and you can feel good that you have helped expose one of them. Maybe this huckster (if that's what you are, Mike, just saying) will change his ways.
Oh, and don't worry: the volunteer will be visibly afflicted with something, so a healing will be obvious and, as a bonus for the video, very dramatic. I bet you can hardly wait!
Have you (or has God, through your effectual fervent prayer) ever healed, say, an amputee?
Is anything too hard for God?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Mike, I have made a bold accusation against you. Would you like me to apologize? Tell you what. Give me your church's address and I will visit, with someone who could really use a healing. I'll at least bring video cameras, but I'll also invite the local media. They might be interested. If your prayer of faith is effectual (i.e., if the healing actually happens, and isn't answered with that famous "No"), I will rescind my accusation (even though one healing doesn't prove that none of your previous claims were bogus -- I'll be generous) and apologize, on video then and there, and here on AFF. (If I haven't been banned. )
And I will post the video here.
Or, of course, you could decline this little challenge (which really shouldn't pose any difficulty for you at all), and we can all judge for ourselves why you would do that. You could explain why, of course. That should be interesting.
So, what do you say? Sound like fun? Sure it does!
Now, of course, if the person who wants a healing isn't actually healed, it could be devastating. But I'll find a volunteer (at least try) who I'll brief on the situation. I'll be open and honest about it. I'll say there is someone who claims many miraculous healings, and that I don't believe him, but maybe he's right and maybe you will be healed. If you are not, please don't let it bother you too much. You must know there are many hucksters out there, some on TV, many more not on TV, and you can feel good that you have helped expose one of them. Maybe this huckster (if that's what you are, Mike, just saying) will change his ways.
Oh, and don't worry: the volunteer will be visibly afflicted with something, so a healing will be obvious and, as a bonus for the video, very dramatic. I bet you can hardly wait!
Have you (or has God, through your effectual fervent prayer) ever healed, say, an amputee?
Is anything too hard for God?
Timmy, if I was going to sit on a side in this, it would be yours. However, I do believe that some healings do happen, usually without fanfare that can be attached to God and not some preacher trying to trump up his own kingdom. Do you believe God ever heals?
__________________
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
Timmy, if I was going to sit on a side in this, it would be yours. However, I do believe that some healings do happen, usually without fanfare that can be attached to God and not some preacher trying to trump up his own kingdom. Do you believe God ever heals?
I am at least a little open to the possibility. But it is, IMO, most likely that God never has and never will actually interfere with the affairs of humanity, and that would include healing.
Purported healings, again IMO, are either bogus (most healings on TV are probably this) or misconstrued and entirely natural and/or psychosomatic. Is it a miracle for a headache to stop? Adrenaline and endorphins are potent. Expectations are high. Subjects are often very cooperative and don't want to not be healed -- they literally play along. They know their role.
Speaking of fanfare, maybe this will be one of Mike's tools to deflect the challenge. He might say God doesn't perform on command, or some such. Maybe my presence will "grieve the Spirit" so it won't work.
Or maybe he'll surprise me and accept! That would be a miracle!
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I am at least a little open to the possibility. But it is, IMO, most likely that God never has and never will actually interfere with the affairs of humanity, and that would include healing.
I am personally definitely open to the possibility, but the idea that God is going to heal through a specific organization/belief system (i.e. pentecostals in particular) I reject. I believe God is going to do what God is going to do and if He is going to heal He will heal whomever He wants sometimes even when that person completely lacks faith.
Quote:
Purported healings, again IMO, are either bogus (most healings on TV are probably this) or misconstrued and entirely natural and/or psychosomatic. Is it a miracle for a headache to stop? Adrenaline and endorphins are potent. Expectations are high. Subjects are often very cooperative and don't want to not be healed -- they literally play along. They know their role.
Yes, I agree with you.
Quote:
Or maybe he'll surprise me and accept! That would be a miracle!
I guess we will have to wait and see.
__________________
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
) 
Linear Mode
