Question about Acts 2:38: What about the martyrs?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Sean, do you still throw the Monopoly board over when you are losing the game?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

LOL

See folks he knows I'm right.

[Sean]

LOL

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, it is being an accuser.

Nice accusation from you.

I am not meaning to blame you, it is just peoples' nature.

Ahh, another accusation.

There are no issues to address, in other people; that is an illusion. You are attempting to pick a splinter from someone else's eye.

Another accusation again. Three so far.

It is just original sin, i guess, and we are obviously having two different conversations. You might just recall this when 5--or 10, or 20...then 40--years go by without any evolution in your faith, which i have no doubt is as genuine as what you were shown.

A fourth accusation.

If it serves you, that is what matters.

Anyway, you still did not answer.

The word means nothing then. Gotcha.

Originally Posted by shazeep

So let me be perfectly clear; every time you tell someone that they are saved, or lost, you are lying to them, and to yourself.

Another accusation.

As long as you continue to even come to such decisions about individuals in your heart, you prove that you do not follow Christ.

More accusations mount up.

But don't worry too much, because no one else really is, either. As long as you don't fall into the fatal trap of believing you have not sinned in a day, possibly for days on end, there is always a chance. A slim one. Prostitutes and tax collectors have better odds.

Again another accusation. See how your reasoning works against your own words?

Originally Posted by shazeep

I never said anything about Muslims, period, except that you are deceived if you imagine that you are qualified to judge them based upon your dogma, or, failing to understand how your own dogma makes that impossible, your doctrines.

Another accusation. Judgmentalism, by your reasoning.

If the bible says people are lost who live by salvation through works, and someone is living by salvation through works, and claiming they are lost as a result is judging them as an accuser (lol), then by the same token saying that judging people based upon a dogma (which is not what I was doing, anyway, but I said dozens of times I'm only repeating the bible's statements) makes one deceived is also judging!

Carrying one's cross has implications for where your eyes might be cast that just are not being comprehended here. You are obviously still trying to justify the phrase "All Muslims are lost."

Another accusation to end of yet another post. I am trying to justify, you say.

Originally Posted by shazeep

mike, it is as simple as understanding that all Pentecostals are lost, because they are judgemental.

Another accusation.

Btw, you didn't get baptized right.

Another accusation. How judgmentaL!

[shazeep]

ok, well i mean those speaking generally, and if they don't apply to you, you don't have to own them. They apply as much to me as the common "you." A few of those were even intentionally facetious to illustrate the point. I can only speak generally, and of course you are free to continue condemning people you don't know to hell, based upon their doctrine as you perceive it. You espouse a widely held view, surely, and one that i grew up with. Let's agree that that pronouncement has absolutely no effect on where Muslims ultimately end up; it can only reflect upon the one who says it.
Are all murderers lost?

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What about the Apostle Paul?

In his epistles he speaks of those who he judged as needing to be turned over to Satan (doesn't sound like a good thing) 1 Corinthians 5:5 as well as Hymenaeus and Philetus 2 Timothy 2:17-18, plus Alexander the coppersmith was to be rewarded according to his evil works 1 Timothy 1:20 , also Paul knew that some had been turned over to reprobate minds Romans 1:28. Was Paul lying? Or even a better question do you believe that Paul was really an apostle?

yes, i believe Paul was an apostle--i believe every word of the Bible, in context. And i note that Job was turned over to satan, although that's an extreme example; note that there was no Paul in the Job scenario; Job was considered righteous, and respected--we would not have judged Job as needing to be turned over to satan. Paul is pronouncing judgement on incest, homosexuality, making/worshipping idols, etc, in a different way than you say "All Muslims are lost, because doctrine" for a few obvious reasons 1) he was anointed, an apostle, performed miracles; was given this authority to establish the Church; and no one can dispute him 2) every example you give, and all the others you can name, i'll wager, would be deemed grave sins even by Muslims.

One need only reflect upon how an incestuous relationship might possibly be "celebrated" in the early Church to see that the circumstances were different; and i don't mean to ignore sins that damage the body, but see how that can turn into a witch hunt. And why. It appeals to human nature to be exclusive. You could be rejecting and alienating a Good Samaritan not because his heart is in the wrong place, but because you started discussing doctrine. Where is the sin, then?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Nice accusation from you. Ahh, another accusation. Another accusation again. Three so far. A fourth accusation. Anyway, you still did not answer. The word means nothing then. Gotcha.
Another accusation. More accusations mount up. Again another accusation. See how your reasoning works against your own words? Another accusation. Judgmentalism, by your reasoning.

If the bible says people are lost who live by salvation through works, and someone is living by salvation through works, and claiming they are lost as a result is judging them as an accuser (lol), then by the same token saying that judging people based upon a dogma (which is not what I was doing, anyway, but I said dozens of times I'm only repeating the bible's statements) makes one deceived is also judging!



Another accusation to end of yet another post. I am trying to justify, you say. Another accusation. Another accusation.

How judgmentaL!

Maybe Shazeep is the accuser of the brethren?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, i believe Paul was an apostle--i believe every word of the Bible, in context. And i note that Job was turned over to satan, although that's an extreme example; note that there was no Paul in the Job scenario; Job was considered righteous, and respected--we would not have judged Job as needing to be turned over to satan. Paul is pronouncing judgement on incest, homosexuality, making/worshipping idols, etc, in a different way than you say "All Muslims are lost, because doctrine" for a few obvious reasons 1) he was anointed, an apostle, performed miracles; was given this authority to establish the Church; and no one can dispute him 2) every example you give, and all the others you can name, i'll wager, would be deemed grave sins even by Muslims.

One need only reflect upon how an incestuous relationship might possibly be "celebrated" in the early Church to see that the circumstances were different; and i don't mean to ignore sins that damage the body, but see how that can turn into a witch hunt. And why. It appeals to human nature to be exclusive. You could be rejecting and alienating a Good Samaritan not because his heart is in the wrong place, but because you started discussing doctrine. Where is the sin, then?

Paul was turning individuals over to Satan because they were detouring saints away from the Message of Jesus Christ. I thought you believe the Bible in context? So, how can you "believe" something which is contradicted by the Quran, and the Quran is contradicted by the Hadiths?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Wait! Shazeep, the Quran points out who is a sinner.

The Hadiths go even into more details on WHO IS LOST?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Joe: "God's word says the doctrine of salvation by works will send us to hell."

Muslim: "My doctrine is salvation by works and I believe it with all my heart. Are you saying I am lost."

John: " Yes, Muslim. Joe is judging you."

Joe: "I just repeated what the word of God said. I made no calls and did not write that word. God inspired the biblical writers to write it, and even there God made the call, not them."

John: "nope. You read that word of God and say it is true, and apply its consequences to someone who admits they believe salvation by works is the way, then you judged that person, not God nor the word of God."

Joe: " So, I cannot tell Muslim that the word of God says he's lost, when he admitted that he believes what the bible says about salvation by works? I cannot tell him what the bible said about those who believe his doctrine and follow it?"

John: "exactly. You judge people who believe in salvation by works when you tell them that God said they're lost if they keep the doctrine of salvation by works."

Joe: "So, you're saying I cannot preach to people what the bible says?"

John: "No. You have to preach. Preach. You just cannot judge."

Joe: "but if I preach God said those who believe salvation by works are lost, then you say I am judging. I just repeated what God said. I'm only the messenger."

John: "nope. When you preach that part of the bible you are judging, not God."

The world has officially gone bonkers.

it might certainly be viewed that way, i will admit. Or, it might be realized that Joe opened the conversation, in a vein that can only be interpreted as "judgement."
"Just consider me equal to Paul, as i instruct you about some tittle, which i will equate with incest."

so you have chosen the area where you might most disagree, and have ignored all the other areas where you would agree. So do not be deceived. Yes, the world truly has gone bonkers, and it should not be surprising why.

[shazeep]

you gotta know your government just loves this, right? satan cannot fight without enemies.