Receiving The Holy Spirit & Speaking In Tongues

[KeptByTheWord]

Covey,

I know it is rather difficult to figure out the quote thing, so first off, I will try to help you with that, because when the quotes get jumbled, it is hard to figure out what you are replying to.

There are three buttons to the bottom right of the response from each member who posts in a thread. You can click on the first box to quote just that response. OR you can do a multiquote, which is the middle box, and lets you click on that button on multiple responses, and quote them all together. Then you just need to make sure your responses are not inside anyone's quote.

It helps a lot when discussion flows with correct quotes, and no one gets frustrated when posts are incorrectly quoted.

Originally Posted by covey

First, let's quote the Scripture "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken for the following reasons:

1) The sound Jesus spoke about was the sound of someone being born of the Spirit. Therefore, the sound would come from the Spirit. Just like the wind which we cannot see, but we hear the sound of it's presence, so it is with "EVERYONE" that is born of the Spirit. We will hear a sound from the Spirit which we cannot see coming or going.

Ok, I can agree with this. It is when you try to make "sound" equal tongues that it doesn't work. Acts 2:2 does say it was the sound from heaven or a wind sound that was heard on the Day of Pentecost. I'm glad you clarified, that it was the sound of the spirit, and not of tongues.

Originally Posted by covey

2) There is not a rushing mighty wind, nor the sound of one, when each one of us (EVERYONE) is born of the Spirit.

Why not? I wonder? If Jesus spoke of that sound to Nicodemus as to how to know how to be born again, and we see it happening on the DOP, why is there not the sound of the spirit when someone gets born again now?

Originally Posted by covey

3) The Greek words in John 3:8 and Acts 2:2 are different, and carry a different application and meaning. The Greek word used for "sound" in John 3:8 is "phōnē". The following definition clarifies the difference in the sound of a inanimate thing and an animate thing. The Holy Spirit and the human being are not inanimate things. The word Jesus used would have been clearly understood to mean there would be a sound made through voice / speech.

1) a sound, a tone
A) of inanimate things, as musical instruments
2) a voice
A) of the sound of uttered words
3) speech
A) of a language, tongue

Bible hub says that this particular word "sound" speaks of wind

1. a sound, tone: of inanimate things, as of musical instruments, Matthew 24:31 (T omits φωνῆς, WH give it only in marginal reading; cf. Buttmann, § 132, 10); 1 Corinthians 14:7; Revelation 14:2; Revelation 18:22 (Isaiah 18:3; Isaiah 24:8; Sir. 50:16; 1 Macc. 5:31; ὀργάνων, Plato, de rep. 3, p. 397a; συριγγων, Euripides, Tro. 127; ψαλτηρίου καί αὐλοῦ, Plutarch, mor., p. 713 c.); of wind, John 3:8 http://biblehub.com/greek/5456.htm

It is quite obvious in the passage where Jesus was talking to Nicodemus that it was going to be a sound of wind that would be heard, which was exactly what was heard on the DOP... the sound of wind from heaven. And while yes, two different words are used... still wind is used with both to indicate that the sound indeed was the sound of wind.

Originally Posted by covey

If we believe what Jesus said, we will speak in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. This is not the gift of tongues as you have proposed. The gift of tongues is a separate experince that is given by God to those He chooses. Not everyone has the gift of tongues.

You are trying to make the "sound" = tongues, but that is not how those two verses present "sound". The sound is "wind" (see biblehub reference above).

The sound of the wind was the sign that Jesus spoke of to Nicodemus and it was heard on the DOP...

Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.


I agree, this is how they were to know the spirit was about to be poured out, by the sign of the sound of the wind, and then we read that tongues followed the sign of the sound of the wind spoken of by Jesus.

So we see the sign Jesus was speaking of in John 3:8 was of the sound of the wind of the spirit, and not tongues.... although tongues certainly followed the sound of the wind of the spirit.

Originally Posted by covey

So, Most of all, the issue is not that we need to speak in tongues to be saved, but we need to believe what Jesus says and obey Him in order for us to be saved. In John 3:8, Jesus clearly said we will speak in tongues when we are born of the Spirit. We need and should believe Him.

I do disagree that Jesus clearly said we will speak in tongues when we are filled with the spirit, as noted above. Perhaps we shall have to disagree, but I can't see where you can stretch tongues into this passage, when it is very clear it is the sound of the wind of the spirit (as noted by the biblehub reference also). Tongues followed that, but they were not the "sound" that Jesus spoke of to Nicodemus.

Originally Posted by covey

You also said "So, if you are saying there is a sound that must be heard whenever someone receives the gift, should not the "wind" be present also before receiving the gift of the HG? Because Jesus mentioned the sound you would hear would be as the wind in John 3:8, and then we see that very wind heard in Acts 2:6."
Again, see above. Jesus did not say we would hear the sound of the wind. He said we would hear the sound of the Spirit. The comparison was, both the wind and the Spirit cannot be seen, but, both, make a sound. He did not say the sound was the sound of wind. By the choice and usage of the Greek word "phōnē", Jesus was clear that those born of the Spirit would hear the sound "through tongue / speech".

Again, I suppose we will have to disagree on this. It is clear to me that in the biblehub reference from the Greek lexicon that the word "sound" refers to wind, and not to speech.

Originally Posted by covey

Nicodemus understood this, but did not understand how. Your comparison of Acts 2:6 is unrelated to John 3:8. Jesus said the sound would be heard each and every tim someone was born of the Spirit. Additionally, the Greek word in Acts 2:6 is a different word that carries a different meaning and definition.

Yes, it is a different word, but both passages speak of wind. In reality, both passages complement each other, because what Jesus spoke of to Nicodemus would be a "sign", then that sign of the spirit being poured out would come with the sound of the wind, which is exactly what happened. Tongues came after the sound of the wind from heaven.

To clarify my stance... the sound of the spirit arriving on the DOP was the sign that Jesus was speaking of to Nicodemus... it was the sound of the wind. It was a sign to show those gathered that the spirit was about to be poured out. Then the tongues came, after the wind.

The wind Jesus was speaking of may or may not be heard again, because it was simply a sign to show those gathered that the spirit was being poured out with power, as Jesus said it would on the day of his ascension, and tongues were manifested as another sign that the spirit was poured out. These signs will follow them that believe Mark 16:16-18 ... there are many signs... tongues being the most common sign of the spirit being poured out.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by covey

Oh, there's a sound come from Heaven, and there ain't no sound like it!
There's a sound come from Heaven, and there ain't no sound like it!
There's a sound come from Heaven, and there ain't no sound like it...
O Lord, I want to hear that sound!

You've heard the sound of the wind?

Originally Posted by CalledOut238

I am thankful for your forgiveness and tip.

You are very welcome

Originally Posted by Amanah

Oh, there's a sound come from Heaven, and there ain't no sound like it!
There's a sound come from Heaven, and there ain't no sound like it!
There's a sound come from Heaven, and there ain't no sound like it...
O Lord, I want to hear that sound!

Holy Spirit rain, rain down on us
Holy Spirit rain, rain down on us
Like a mighty wind blow through this house
Open up the heavens and pour Your Spirit out
Like a mighty wind blow through this house
Open up the heavens and pour Your Spirit out
Rain Lord, Rain Lord, Rain Lord, Rain Lord
God Almighty, Let Your Holy Spirit Rain


Holy Spirit rain, rain down on us
Holy Spirit rain, rain down on us

Have you heard that wind, the sound of the spirit from heaven? I'm curious.

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Simmer down you two...we're trying to have a discussion here
It ain't the time for

Besides, we're talking about wind, so don't go bringin rain in on it already.

LOL...

Originally Posted by Esaias

The quotes are getting mixed up for some reason. Must be the debbil.

I know you are talking about the sound of the Spirit, that's what I was singing about.

'It's the Holy Ghost from heaven, and there ain't no sound like it!
It's that Holy Ghost from heaven, and there ain't no sound like it!
It's the Holy Ghost from heaven, and there ain't no sound like it!
O Lord, I want to hear that sound!

Cain't you hear that sound from heaven, there ain't no sound like it!
Cain't you hear that sound from heaven, there ain't no sound like it!
Cain't you hear that sound from heaven, there ain't no sound like it!
O Lord, I want to hear that sound!'

*Note: Have to use the word Cain't, not Can't. Otherwise it just don't SOUND right...

That ole debbil... always messing things up! lol

[n david]

All this talk about sound (waves) makes me think of a message I heard a while back....

[CalledOut238]

Has anyone studied the Old Testament usage of Prophesy or Naba’? Our Heavenly Father has been using this affirmation of his spirit since sanctifying Moses and the elders.

Numbers 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

Naba’: To cause to bubble up, hence to pour forth word abundantly, as is done by those who speak with ardour or divine emotion of mind.

I find it interesting that the Old Testament Naba’ definition correlates to Jesus’ description of the Holy Ghost.

John 7: 37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The foretelling of God dwelling in his people by Joel uses naba'.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall (prophesy/ naba'), your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

When describing the new believers speaking in tongues that were heard by the visiting Hebrews, Peter refers back to Joel’s usage of naba'.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The difference is that in the Old Testament; God moved upon his people. Whereas in the New Testament He indwelled in His Children.

Selah

[JamesGlen]

Rev. 21:3

[covey]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Ok, I can agree with this. It is when you try to make "sound" equal tongues that it doesn't work. Acts 2:2 does say it was the sound from heaven or a wind sound that was heard on the Day of Pentecost. I'm glad you clarified, that it was the sound of the spirit, and not of tongues.

Sigh, I was trying to clarify the sound, “heard “of the Spirit, comes from the sound of the one born of the Spirit. Which is speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. Perhaps John 3:8 is better articulated to say, just as we hear the “voice” of the wind, we will hear the “voice” of the Spirit, by those born of the Spirit.

For the sake of articulating the message of the passage in a more excellent way, let’s examine the passage again: KJV John 3:8 “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

A) Jesus mentions two sounds are made: one generated by the power of the wind, one generated by the power of the Holy Spirit.
B) Jesus compared the fact that one cannot see the wind, but will hear it, to the fact that one cannot see the Spirit but will hear the one (everyone) born of the Spirit.
C) Sound generated by the Spirit is heard only from the one born of the Spirit.
D) The sound coming from the one born of the Spirit is heard from everyone born of the Spirit.
E) The sound is heard from “everyone born of the Spirit”, because, it comes from
everyone born of the Spirit.
F) The Spirit is not seen, but the sound is heard from everyone born of the Spirit
G) The sound that is heard is a “spoken sound’ from everyone born of the Spirit.
H) We know it is a spoken sound, because the Greek word “"phōnē" cannot be translated in other way, unless the sound comes from an inanimate thing. An inanimate thing is a non-living thing. The Holy Spirit and everyone born of the Spirit are living things. Therefore, the sound can only come from the tongue, and comes from the voice of speech, which according to John 3:8, is from everyone born of the Spirit.

Please note, the sound is of the Spirit, from everyone born of the Spirit. Therefore, the sound is not of the wind, but of the Spirit, coming from those born of the Spirit. The sound, is the voice of the Spirit speaking through everyone that is born of the Spirit. This passage leaves no doubt as to the Holy Spirit generates the sound (voice) and who’s tongue (the one born of the Spirit) speaks the sound that is heard.

Unless one believes the Holy Spirit is inanimate, one must accept the sound comes from “a living thing”, which means, the sound that is heard is from the speech of those born of the Spirit. There is no other way to correctly understand this verse. The definition of the Greek word "phōnē" is extremely clear the sound comes from speaking. Since the sound comes from speaking, John 3:8 must be understood the same way Nicodemus understood it: the speaking will be heard from the everyone born of the Spirit.

Please see, AGAIN, "Strong's" definition of the Greek word "phōnē": Unless the sound comes from an inanimate thing, it comes ONLY from speech / tongue. PERIOD. There is no question about it. The sound is a “voice” heard from the one born of the Spirit.


1) a sound, a tone: A) of inanimate things, as musical instruments.

2) a voice: A) of the sound of uttered words.

3) speech: A) of a language, tongue.

Please note: the first definition does not and cannotapply to the Spirit or those born of the Spirit, because it ONLY applies to non living things. Therefore, it must be struck from the definition of the "sound" of everyone born of the Spirit! Therefore, we muest understand the sound must come from either od the following two definitions of the greek word.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Why not? I wonder? If Jesus spoke of that sound to Nicodemus as to how to know how to be born again, and we see it happening on the DOP, why is there not the sound of the spirit when someone gets born again now?

I am glad you asked this question. If Jesus was saying what you allege he said, we would ALWAYS hear, the sound of the wind heard on the DOP, with everyone born of the Spirit. Otherwise, Jesus would be a liar. Since we know Jesus is not a liar, we know this is not what he said. As described above, Jesus spoke of the sound of those born of the Spirit. In Acts 2:4, 6-13, we see the sound of those born of the Spirit was in view. That sound that was heard of those “born of the Spirit” was “speaking in tongues”. Those born of the Spirit were NOT making sounds of the wind.

When Peter answered their query, he did not address the sound of the rushing mighty wind, but addressed the sound of those born of the Spirit, speaking in tongues that were not their own (please note, John 3:8, Jesus spoke of the sound of everyone born of the Spirit, Acts 2 confirms the sound is from speech of everyone born of the Spirit). In Acts 2:14-16, Peter explains they witnessed the fulfillment prophesy of Joel. Thus, the first fulfillment of what Jesus told Nicodemus too.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Bible hub says that this particular word "sound" speaks of wind

1. a sound, tone: of inanimate things, as of musical instruments, Matthew 24:31 (T omits φωνῆς, WH give it only in marginal reading; cf. Buttmann, § 132, 10); 1 Corinthians 14:7; Revelation 14:2; Revelation 18:22 (Isaiah 18:3; Isaiah 24:8; Sir. 50:16; 1 Macc. 5:31; ὀργάνων, Plato, de rep. 3, p. 397a; συριγγων, Euripides, Tro. 127; ψαλτηρίου καί αὐλοῦ, Plutarch, mor., p. 713 c.); of wind, John 3:8 http://biblehub.com/greek/5456.htm

It is quite obvious in the passage where Jesus was talking to Nicodemus that it was going to be a sound of wind that would be heard, which was exactly what was heard on the DOP... the sound of wind from heaven. And while yes, two different words are used... still wind is used with both to indicate that the sound indeed was the sound of wind.

I applaud your effort to examine the meaning of the Greek word "phōnē". I checked out biblehub too and I see how you came to this conclusion. It is not your fault, but the conclusion is erroneous, because the biblehub explanation of the definition of the Greek word "phōnē" is inadequate and incomplete. The definition given above is complete, and, in fact, the same Greek word is used approximately 140 times, in 128 verse of the NT. Virtually 99.99% of the time the word is translated “VOICE”. The reason for this is, the sound comes from a voice of living things. When the sound comes from inanimate things, it is translated sound.

Please pay attention to what I have told you, because it is extremely significant that the sound is from those born of the Spirit and the sound cannot be anything other than from the speech. Therefore, the sound is the “voice” of the Spirit, speaking through the tongue of everyone born of the Spirit.

I don’t want you to take my word for it. I would like to give you the tools to examine what I have said for yourself. Unfortunately, as much as I like and use biblehub myself, it is inadequate when it comes to the Greek meaning of words.

You can thoroughly examine the meaning of the Greek word "phōnē" and all other Geek and Hebrew words of the OT and NT anytime you want to by using the online version of the “Blue Letter Bible”. The following link should take you directly to John 3:8 and the definition of "phōnē":

https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb...t_conc_1000008

When you get there, you will notice a tab above “Strong’s”, whenever you het the tab, it will reveal the Geek reference number behind the words. It gives a lot of information about the word and how many places and where the word is used elsewhere in the Bible, etc.

Please let me know what your opinion is of John 3:8 after you examine these things.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

You are trying to make the "sound" = tongues, but that is not how those two verses present "sound". The sound is "wind" (see biblehub reference above).

I'm afraid it is the other way around. You are trying to make sound = wind. See Strong’s definition of " "phōnē" above. You have made the mistake of taking the definition of an inanimate thing and applied it to LIVING THINGS (the Holy Spirit and everyone born of the SPirit). Again, the definition you cited is correct if it is associated with an inanimate thing. However, the Holy Spirit is a LIVING THING and everyone born of the Spirit is a living thing. Therefore, the only sound that could be heard MUST come from the tongue / speech. I am not making this up and
I am not trying to make something fit my belief. This is simply the truth.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

The sound of the wind was the sign that Jesus spoke of to Nicodemus and it was heard on the DOP...

It can't be for two reasons.

1) Jesus spoke of a sound of those born of the Spirit. The above explanations of this sound coming from speech notwithstanding, the sound of the wind in Acts 2:2 is the sound as of the wind, but the sound of everyone born of the Spirit – See Acts 2:4 - , was the sound of the them speaking in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance. So, acts 2:2 and Acts 2:4 had two separate sounds, one is the sound of the wind and the other is the sound spoken of, by Jesus, the sound one of everyone born of the Spirit. Acts 2:4 leaves ZERO doubt as to what sound was heard from everyone born of the Spirit “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.”


2) The sound Jesus spoke of would be the sound heard by everyone that is born of the Spirit. The rushing mighty wind was a one-time announcement from God that He was pouring out His Spirit. Again, the sound of the rushing might wind was, just that, the sound of the wind. It was not, and needs not to be confused with the sound made by everyone born of the Spirit, because Acts 2:4 is clear “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.”

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Yep, it says the wind filled the house, but the Spirit filled the believers and the sound that was heard came from everyone born of the Spirit was speaking in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance. Thus, the first fulfilling of the words spoken by Jesus to Nicodemus in John 3:8 occurred on the DOP.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I agree, this is how they were to know the spirit was about to be poured out, by the sign of the sound of the wind, and then we read that tongues followed the sign of the sound of the wind spoken of by Jesus.

Again, you are trying very hard to make something fit that is not there. The believers were NOT filled with the wind, the house was filled with the wind. The believers were filled with the Holy Spirit and the sound that was heard, was heard from everyone born of the Spirit. Again, Acts 2:4 clarifies exactly what sound was heard “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.”.

I am sorry for the redundancy, but I am reply to the same and feel the need to do so.

[Jito463]

One way I've heard it spoken of before, is that the sound of speaking in tongues is that of birth. If repentance is our death to the old man, and baptism is our burial then it stands to reason that the infilling of the Holy Ghost is our rebirth.

What happens when a new born child comes into the world for the first time? They cry out. That rush of air into the lungs gives them something they've never experienced before, and it causes them to cry out, which is how we know that the child is alive.

Similarly, when a newborn child of God experiences the rush of the Holy Ghost filling them spiritually, they cry out, which is how we know that they are alive in Christ.

I can't remember when or where I heard that, but it's stuck with me ever since. I'm sure it's been preached many times by many preachers, though.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jito463

One way I've heard it spoken of before, is that the sound of speaking in tongues is that of birth. If repentance is our death to the old man, and baptism is our burial then it stands to reason that the infilling of the Holy Ghost is our rebirth.

What happens when a new born child comes into the world for the first time? They cry out. That rush of air into the lungs gives them something they've never experienced before, and it causes them to cry out, which is how we know that the child is alive.

Similarly, when a newborn child of God experiences the rush of the Holy Ghost filling them spiritually, they cry out, which is how we know that they are alive in Christ.

I can't remember when or where I heard that, but it's stuck with me ever since. I'm sure it's been preached many times by many preachers, though.

A child may be born, but if they don't BREATHE they will "die in childbirth". And, crying for that first time is how the amniotic fluid is purged from the lung.

I'm sure there's about a dozen sermons in there...

[KeptByTheWord]

Covey,

Thank you for your excellent response. I'm sorry I've taken a while to get back to you. I've had computer issues the last few days.

I appreciated your link to the blueletterbible. I was not aware of that site, and it is very nicely done, and very easy to follow. Thank you

However, I do have to disagree with you still about the definition of sound in John 3:8. In fact, when I went to the blueletterbible site, I noticed this very helpful link:

The KJV translates Strong's G5456 in the following manner: voice (131x), sound (8x), be noised abroad (with G1096) (1x), noise (1x).

I notice that you were focusing on the "voice" links. However, when I clicked on the "sound" link, I found this.

KJV Strong's G5456 matches the Greek φωνή (phōnē).
"sound*" AND "G5456" occurs 15 times in 13 verses in the KJV.


Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound G5456 of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice G5456 of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound G5456 thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I didn't copy all of the similar passages where sound is used, there are 13 of them, but John 3:8 is in this same link of passages where sound is varied, and not just a human voice.

Yes I understand that Jesus would not lie... and He didn't. He said that as the sound of the wind comes and no one can see it coming, so is everyone born of the spirit. And then we read of the sound of the wind that came first in Acts 2:2, and then the believers were filled with the spirit, with speaking in tongues evidenced. It is quite obvious he was pointing to the event to take place on the DOP, yes I agree.

However, Jesus was using the wind as a concept in which to understand how the spirit would come into a life. As the wind blows, and no one can see it, that is how one is born of the spirit.

I am not disqualifying tongues being present on the DOP, not at all. But John 3:8 is simply a comparison of the wind coming and going and not being seen, and then Jesus said, so are those who are born of the spirit. It is a comparison between the wind and the spirit simply. Trying to use the word "sound" to be tongues, instead of relative to wind is really taking liberties with the scripture, in my opinion.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

All this talk about sound (waves) makes me think of a message I heard a while back....

Yeah... I remember that... lol!