Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

[returnman]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I have to say this was and is a interesting thread, I did not start coming into the lounge until a few years ago, stayed in the debate section most of the time.

I was born and raised in the state of Washington, spent most of that time in the church in the Tri Cities Kennewick which for several years was the only church in the Tri Cities. Tommy Odaniel was out of our church and I am personal friends with the Odaniel family. When I was 9 we moved to Portland and attended the Sponslers church. Then moved to Pendleton OR. while the Rutzens were still pastors. Not sure the salvational stand was of these two pastors, but I know that both did not teach the standards as they were taught in Kennewick under the Hurst. Which is funny because in Washington state the Hurst were looked on as liberal.

At my age, not knowing all the ins and outs of three steppers, verses one steppers, it was liberals verses hard liners. Being raised a three stepper, it was only in the last few years that I changed from that to a one stepper. To find out a year later there were many that believed and taught that from the start of the UPCI.

All that to say, those that were of the PCI mind set, were far gentler in spirit than three steppers. That spoke volumes to me. Speaking from my own personal experience being in the ministry for 20 plus years in Washington. I can see how Fisher might have thought he had enough support to bring in a reform. Had the control of the college been in Washington instead of Oregon. But by the time of the move to Washington it was too late.

Somewhat like yourself but later, spent almost 20 years in the NW between WA and OR. Was in WA when the Westburg resolution went thru and recall very well the "weak on the message" comments from pastor at that time. As you pointed out...your church was pretty conservative and still regarded as lib by some churches in WA. I came to realize later that most of those so-called con churches where more about control and ruled out of fear that the saints might get drawn away if allowed to fellowship very far from the closed loop circle of just a few "like minded men."

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by returnman

Somewhat like yourself but later, spent almost 20 years in the NW between WA and OR. Was in WA when the Westburg resolution went thru and recall very well the "weak on the message" comments from pastor at that time. As you pointed out...your church was pretty conservative and still regarded as lib by some churches in WA. I came to realize later that most of those so-called con churches where more about control and ruled out of fear that the saints might get drawn away if allowed to fellowship very far from the closed loop circle of just a few "like minded men."

Which might be why camp meeting were always on the west side. No one on the west side wanted to come to the east side where all us liberals were. Even when they bought property in the middle of the state, they had to let it go because they could not get enough support from the west side.

Looking back though, I was always swimming against the flow, many times I did not know I was. I was the first drummer in the state, we put together a singing group in the early 70's and took my drums to family camp at one of the last years at Black Lake. I don't remember if I was allowed to play for the whole camp that year, but we did a few specials. Heard later from pastor Hurst that he got a lot of flack from some of the con's. That drums had no place in church. LOL I continued to take my drums to sectional and district functions. within 5 years most every church had a drummer.

My first assistant pastor position with Frances Mason in Everett, I approached the pastor about combining our youth with Federal Way and others to have a skating Party where we rented the whole skating rink. Pastor Mason had to study and pray about it but in the end could find nothing wrong with it, so started a change on the west side.

Towards the end of my time attending and being part of UPCI, I had already let my credentials laps, but was the unofficial asst. to Gary Blaylock in North Seattle for 10 years. I had grown a full beard, and went to a sectional meeting in Belleview the Kerns church. Brother Woodson came up to me and ask what that was on my face? I responded with "well sir one morning I got up and looked in the mirror and saw these tiny black things growing out my face, and ask myself what would happen if I did not torture myself with this razor, and low and behold this is what happened". LOL Pastor Kern came up to me and ask the same question and I started to tell him the same thing, but looked at his face and knew he would not get the punch line and just said "it is a beard".

The last UPCI service I attended, was in Hermiston, I had been playing my sax, but when I grew my beard out was not allowed to play. The next Sunday pastor Bankston preached against facial hair. There was a visitor with a beard also. After service Bankston came up to me and said, he was not preaching at me but preparing some of the young men that were thinking of ministry. I simply said that was fine but I myself would not have presented a message like that on a Sunday with visitors.

The point behind this post, is to reflect the mind set of those that push non biblical standards, and salvation that divide the kingdom of God. The very thing that the brethren pledged not to do when forming the organization of UPCI.

[Disciple4life]

I grew up and live in the St. Louis area (the stronghold of those strong in the force, uh I mean strong in the message). As far as I knew there was not one single Pentecostal on this planet that didn't believe that Acts 2:38 is the plan of salvation. The big secret is that there are different opinions on the subject. WOW that blew my mind when I found this out.

How did I come to the conclusion that there was no difference of opinion, or that discussion of the subject was anathema? I was told that by pastors, ministers and saints alike. I was told this for at least two decades.

I wish I was told the whole story, not just what their opinion was. MAYBE (to be fair) they didn't know the whole story. We do live in St. Louis(home of the Deathstar).

Godsdrummer,

To bad you don't live closer! We could So have a jam session.

Hey once I went to this church and a guy brought an electric guitar, And he wanted to plug it in!!!

[returnman]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Which might be why camp meeting were always on the west side. No one on the west side wanted to come to the east side where all us liberals were. Even when they bought property in the middle of the state, they had to let it go because they could not get enough support from the west side.

Looking back though, I was always swimming against the flow, many times I did not know I was. I was the first drummer in the state, we put together a singing group in the early 70's and took my drums to family camp at one of the last years at Black Lake. I don't remember if I was allowed to play for the whole camp that year, but we did a few specials. Heard later from pastor Hurst that he got a lot of flack from some of the con's. That drums had no place in church. LOL I continued to take my drums to sectional and district functions. within 5 years most every church had a drummer.

My first assistant pastor position with Frances Mason in Everett, I approached the pastor about combining our youth with Federal Way and others to have a skating Party where we rented the whole skating rink. Pastor Mason had to study and pray about it but in the end could find nothing wrong with it, so started a change on the west side.

Towards the end of my time attending and being part of UPCI, I had already let my credentials laps, but was the unofficial asst. to Gary Blaylock in North Seattle for 10 years. I had grown a full beard, and went to a sectional meeting in Belleview the Kerns church. Brother Woodson came up to me and ask what that was on my face? I responded with "well sir one morning I got up and looked in the mirror and saw these tiny black things growing out my face, and ask myself what would happen if I did not torture myself with this razor, and low and behold this is what happened". LOL Pastor Kern came up to me and ask the same question and I started to tell him the same thing, but looked at his face and knew he would not get the punch line and just said "it is a beard".

The last UPCI service I attended, was in Hermiston, I had been playing my sax, but when I grew my beard out was not allowed to play. The next Sunday pastor Bankston preached against facial hair. There was a visitor with a beard also. After service Bankston came up to me and said, he was not preaching at me but preparing some of the young men that were thinking of ministry. I simply said that was fine but I myself would not have presented a message like that on a Sunday with visitors.

The point behind this post, is to reflect the mind set of those that push non biblical standards, and salvation that divide the kingdom of God. The very thing that the brethren pledged not to do when forming the organization of UPCI.

I do know that Kern refused to baptize someone until they shaved their beard as a test of obedience. I lived in both worlds as the following poster from St. Louis which I will comment next. The NW opened a whole other world for me.

[returnman]

[QUOTE=Disciple4life;1423566]I grew up and live in the St. Louis area (the stronghold of those strong in the force, uh I mean strong in the message). As far as I knew there was not one single Pentecostal on this planet that didn't believe that Acts 2:38 is the plan of salvation. The big secret is that there are different opinions on the subject. WOW that blew my mind when I found this out.

How did I come to the conclusion that there was no difference of opinion, or that discussion of the subject was anathema? I was told that by pastors, ministers and saints alike. I was told this for at least two decades.

I wish I was told the whole story, not just what their opinion was. MAYBE (to be fair) they didn't know the whole story. We do live in St. Louis(home of the Deathstar).

Godsdrummer,

To bad you don't live closer! We could So have a jam session.

Hey once I went to this church and a guy brought an electric guitar, And he wanted to plug it in!!![/QUOTe

Much like yourself I never thought anything different about Acts 2:38 being consistent throughout the fellowship. Always thought standards was the only difference. I did note that Jim Roam did not exactly hammer it when he came back to pastor like your typical preacher. I still didn't doubt he believed it. It would prove later I was wrong. If there where witch hunts to purge out PCI types then I wasn't aware. Interesting that I was from NW TN, a supposed likeness to the NW with PCI influence. Having not been apart of the UPCI growing up nor as an adult in the TN district I was unaware of any of this till much later. TN was always compared to Idaho on standards.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by returnman

I do know that Kern refused to baptize someone until they shaved their beard as a test of obedience. I lived in both worlds as the following poster from St. Louis which I will comment next. The NW opened a whole other world for me.

When Randy Langley in Hillsboro refused to baptize a teen (a 17 year old high school junior) because she trimmed her bangs, I had enough. About the same time, he asked to see me after church one Sunday. He continued the bald-faced lie that had been started by Carl Brown and Barry King (and the reason why I left the Beaverton church). Langley accused me of trying to split his church. I could not believe my ears. My character was being impugned and I had no where to go. There was such a hard, carnal spirit coming from him I realized I'd reached the end of the road as far as the UPC was concerned.
He had been using me to teach the adult Sunday School and I was his outreach director. I returned all my contacts for the Search For Truth bible studies to him.
I couldn't get out of there fast enough.
His words verbatim to me as my family climbed into our car to leave were, "It's mighty cold out there, Brother......".. I'd like to say that he said it in love, but...not really. He was right about it being "cold". In the late '80's there was no support system for expatriated PCI'ers, and it was cold for a long time.
I had done nothing wrong, nothing immoral, nothing unfaithful, or disloyal to either him or the leadership of my previous church. I really couldn't understand what was going on. I took it personally because I thought it was personal.
It took a long time for me to realize that it was over my pedigree as a PCI'er AND that my pastors were Alvin Cobb and Wayne Nigh. Nigh was the one that endorsed my application to CBC!
I didn't know of the world of political issues going on with not only CBC but with the vehemence the Ultra-cons viewed Nigh's end-time position (one that I naturally took)!
Fudge did a good job on the book, but imo he left out 1/3 of the reason why the PTLD area pastors took such a strong position against the school. It was about the same time that Nigh was refused by the FMD to return to Germany as a PIM missionary over his end-time views. He stubbornly returned anyway, and the FMD granted him AIM status, fearful to lose the influential work he had begun in Wiesbaden.

[Monterrey]

Originally Posted by Sabby

When Randy Langley in Hillsboro refused to baptize a teen (a 17 year old high school junior) because she trimmed her bangs, I had enough. About the same time, he asked to see me after church one Sunday. He continued the bald-faced lie that had been started by Carl Brown and Barry King (and the reason why I left the Beaverton church). Langley accused me of trying to split his church. I could not believe my ears. My character was being impugned and I had no where to go. There was such a hard, carnal spirit coming from him I realized I'd reached the end of the road as far as the UPC was concerned.
He had been using me to teach the adult Sunday School and I was his outreach director. I returned all my contacts for the Search For Truth bible studies to him.
I couldn't get out of there fast enough.
His words verbatim to me as my family climbed into our car to leave were, "It's mighty cold out there, Brother......".. I'd like to say that he said it in love, but...not really. He was right about it being "cold". In the late '80's there was no support system for expatriated PCI'ers, and it was cold for a long time.
I had done nothing wrong, nothing immoral, nothing unfaithful, or disloyal to either him or the leadership of my previous church. I really couldn't understand what was going on. I took it personally because I thought it was personal.
It took a long time for me to realize that it was over my pedigree as a PCI'er AND that my pastors were Alvin Cobb and Wayne Nigh. Nigh was the one that endorsed my application to CBC!
I didn't know of the world of political issues going on with not only CBC but with the vehemence the Ultra-cons viewed Nigh's end-time position (one that I naturally took)!
Fudge did a good job on the book, but imo he left out 1/3 of the reason why the PTLD area pastors took such a strong position against the school. It was about the same time that Nigh was refused by the FMD to return to Germany as a PIM missionary over his end-time views. He stubbornly returned anyway, and the FMD granted him AIM status, fearful to lose the influential work he had begun in Wiesbaden.

Idaho has always had it rough from many in the ranks of the upci. There does seem to exist a harsh critical spirit from many in the ranks of the "cons" up there.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sabby

When Randy Langley in Hillsboro refused to baptize a teen (a 17 year old high school junior) because she trimmed her bangs, I had enough. About the same time, he asked to see me after church one Sunday. He continued the bald-faced lie that had been started by Carl Brown and Barry King (and the reason why I left the Beaverton church). Langley accused me of trying to split his church. I could not believe my ears. My character was being impugned and I had no where to go. There was such a hard, carnal spirit coming from him I realized I'd reached the end of the road as far as the UPC was concerned.
He had been using me to teach the adult Sunday School and I was his outreach director. I returned all my contacts for the Search For Truth bible studies to him.
I couldn't get out of there fast enough.
His words verbatim to me as my family climbed into our car to leave were, "It's mighty cold out there, Brother......".. I'd like to say that he said it in love, but...not really. He was right about it being "cold". In the late '80's there was no support system for expatriated PCI'ers, and it was cold for a long time.
I had done nothing wrong, nothing immoral, nothing unfaithful, or disloyal to either him or the leadership of my previous church. I really couldn't understand what was going on. I took it personally because I thought it was personal.
It took a long time for me to realize that it was over my pedigree as a PCI'er AND that my pastors were Alvin Cobb and Wayne Nigh. Nigh was the one that endorsed my application to CBC!
I didn't know of the world of political issues going on with not only CBC but with the vehemence the Ultra-cons viewed Nigh's end-time position (one that I naturally took)!
Fudge did a good job on the book, but imo he left out 1/3 of the reason why the PTLD area pastors took such a strong position against the school. It was about the same time that Nigh was refused by the FMD to return to Germany as a PIM missionary over his end-time views. He stubbornly returned anyway, and the FMD granted him AIM status, fearful to lose the influential work he had begun in Wiesbaden.

Not sure if I have the dates right, it seems that it was the early 90's right after I let my credentials return to UPCI, that the org. passed the annual signing of belief of the standards, that caused a split in the north west at least. In which caused the forming of the ministerial net. Headed up by Rutzen, Parker and a few others in the NW. This organization would later become part of Global or became Global Net. While this was primarily a standards issue most of those that drew out of the UPCI at his time were PCI'ers.

Most of those that drew out though did not leave because of differing views on standards, rather they did not agree with being forced to sign a declaration of a certain belief that should be open to the individual Pastors. This was the very opposite of the spirit of the original organizations that worked so hard to keep unity of spirt in the very beginning of the UPCI.

While I don't count numbers, those that left UPCI began to grow exponentially and run in the thousands. While those that stayed in UPCI have continued to just mark time. Of course many of those in UPCI claim a letting down of standards being the reason for the growth.
I would have to disagree, being one that has attended both groups in the last 15 years, the spirit of God moves in a deeper realm in those churches that left UPCI.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Disciple4life

I grew up and live in the St. Louis area (the stronghold of those strong in the force, uh I mean strong in the message). As far as I knew there was not one single Pentecostal on this planet that didn't believe that Acts 2:38 is the plan of salvation. The big secret is that there are different opinions on the subject. WOW that blew my mind when I found this out.

How did I come to the conclusion that there was no difference of opinion, or that discussion of the subject was anathema? I was told that by pastors, ministers and saints alike. I was told this for at least two decades.

I wish I was told the whole story, not just what their opinion was. MAYBE (to be fair) they didn't know the whole story. We do live in St. Louis(home of the Deathstar).

Godsdrummer,

To bad you don't live closer! We could So have a jam session.

Hey once I went to this church and a guy brought an electric guitar, And he wanted to plug it in!!!

Or vise versa, haven't played drums in quite a while now, but have started playing the bass, and sax. But yes we could so have a jam session, as my son is now the drummer, and wife and daughters play keyboards and sing.

[aegsm76]

"While I don't count numbers, those that left UPCI began to grow exponentially and run in the thousands."

What churches are these?