The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I came to the Gospel through a Trinitarian Pentecostal Church. Should I go back to it? The Oneness Pentecostal preachers came out of the Trinitarian Churches. Should they be thankful and come back to it? Baptism in Jesus name the same.

Do I have something better to replace it? Absolutely!! Some have done it already, oneness, holiness churches, and have running them without tithing; based totally on free-will. See my previous posts for examples.

The Apostles are elders, but not all elders are apostles. The Bible makes a distinction depending on the context. Just to give you an example:

[Act 15:6 NKJV] Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.

Brother, we are not being ridiculous, or stupid, or just bringing negative criticism.

How long have you had no full time ministers? Are they self employed? If Sister Foofoofnick goes to the emergency room, and Brother so and so has an issue can they leave the job to take care of that church buisness? How long were you full time before you started to do what you are doing now? How long have you been taking care of your comgregation? What issues have you faced while you been working your secular job plus bringing in the sheaves? Do you have a building or is it house church?

[Evang.Benincasa]

The early Christian ministers were called the παραβαλανεῖς.
This Greek term meant someone who took care of people who were stricken with plague, or leprosy. Risking their own lives. Paul uses this word in Philippians 2:30 speaking of Epaphorditus who gambled with his own life to serve Paul and the church. Paul says that this man did it while his vocation was for Christ. Peter turned to Jesus and makes the statement that he and the other students left behind everything to be Jesus’ students. Jesus removed Peter from secular work, as well as Matthew’s obligations to the Empire. A job that didn’t come easily, and you sure couldn’t do it part time. Or come up short while doing it.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

How long have you had no full time ministers? Are they self employed? If Sister Foofoofnick goes to the emergency room, and Brother so and so has an issue can they leave the job to take care of that church buisness? How long were you full time before you started to do what you are doing now? How long have you been taking care of your comgregation? What issues have you faced while you been working your secular job plus bringing in the sheaves? Do you have a building or is it house church?

You definitely have not followed the conversation on this thread.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by coksiw

You definitely have not followed the conversation on this thread.

Brother, I understand what you and tithemeister are saying especially when you bring up people who use the pulpit to force tithe. I don’t agree with that, and neither to others, yet we don’t throw the baby out with the bath water! I told this to tithemeister, of the church is content with their minister being full time, and paying a tithe so he can be, we shouldn’t try to go in there and force them to stop. I believe a minister should be full time, when God calls you it’s not part time! You leave what your doing and you go what God has called you to do. If your called God will sustain you.

On tithe, you and others may disagree with the scriptures preachers use, and you may have the evidence to back you up, yet...

Acts 5:39
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

Church’s that I know have been established by a full time minister and have been paid tithe. Many if not all church’s of the upc or wpf or independent church’s have the same structure. If your a Pastor and you don’t feel to accept tithe then by all means don’t. Of you want to work full time and Pastor part time then that’s up to you.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Brother, I understand what you and tithemeister are saying especially when you bring up people who use the pulpit to force tithe. I don’t agree with that, and neither to others, yet we don’t throw the baby out with the bath water! I told this to tithemeister, of the church is content with their minister being full time, and paying a tithe so he can be, we shouldn’t try to go in there and force them to stop. I believe a minister should be full time, when God calls you it’s not part time! You leave what your doing and you go what God has called you to do. If your called God will sustain you.

On tithe, you and others may disagree with the scriptures preachers use, and you may have the evidence to back you up, yet...

Acts 5:39
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

Church’s that I know have been established by a full time minister and have been paid tithe. Many if not all church’s of the upc or wpf or independent church’s have the same structure. If your a Pastor and you don’t feel to accept tithe then by all means don’t. Of you want to work full time and Pastor part time then that’s up to you.

The fact that the UPC, and WPF grew and got established with tithing does not make it right. Many Trinitarian churches have worked hard to spread the Word of God, and many, like me, have come to God first through a Trinitarian church. The translation of the Bible you have probably came from a group that was Trinitarian, probably even the publisher. I am also thankful that there was a Trinitarian Pentecostal Church in my town, where I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We didn't have a oneness church I knew of back then. There, I also got to experience the power of the real God for the very first time. I am thankful for their work. I also believe that in their imperfection God put them there to bring his Word to the people, and the experience of a real God. I have many friends that are or were pastors, and they are humble loving people that preach and teach regardless, and are used mightily by God. Yet the believe and teach tithing. At least the practice what they believe!!!

I am not against preventing the assembly to have full-time ministry if they can afford it. In fact, it is a nice thing to have. As well as having buildings. I was just exploring God's word regarding 1 Tim 5, not to judge other, but to just make sense of it.

Brother, I am black and white regarding doctrine, but I am not black/white regarding the possibility of God using us in our imperfections to bring salvation. My word may sound rough on this forum, but in face to face conversation, I am not a fire and brimstone person against tithing, because I know my brothers and their intention, and love them, and I know the power of God in their life.

I believe the blessing will be greater if we stop teaching tithing, even as a recommended amount. Tithe on the Church started as a recommended amount. The problem with that it is that it soon becomes a measuring stick, and soon a mandate. That's what exactly happened in history.

Paul had it right: the money topic can hinder the Gospel. He was very very careful regarding that. I believe tithing hinders the Gospel nowadays: it makes the preachers look bad when they preach it, and lose some credibility in many people's eyes. Not everybody is an ignorant. They read the NT and they can see by themselves the obvious.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

The fact that the UPC, and WPF grew and got established with tithing does not make it right. Many Trinitarian churches have worked hard to spread the Word of God, and many, like me, have come to God first through a Trinitarian church. The translation of the Bible you have probably came from a group that was Trinitarian, probably even the publisher. I am also thankful that there was a Trinitarian Pentecostal Church in my town, where I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We didn't have a oneness church I knew of back then. There, I also got to experience the power of the real God for the very first time. I am thankful for their work. I also believe that in their imperfection God put them there to bring his Word to the people, and the experience of a real God. I have many friends that are or were pastors, and they are humble loving people that preach and teach regardless, and are used mightily by God. Yet the believe and teach tithing. At least the practice what they believe!!!

I am not against preventing the assembly to have full-time ministry if they can afford it. In fact, it is a nice thing to have. As well as having buildings. I was just exploring God's word regarding 1 Tim 5, not to judge other, but to just make sense of it.

Brother, I am black and white regarding doctrine, but I am not black/white regarding the possibility of God using us in our imperfections to bring salvation. My word may sound rough on this forum, but in face to face conversation, I am not a fire and brimstone person against tithing, because I know my brothers and their intention, and love them, and I know the power of God in their life.

I believe the blessing will be greater if we stop teaching tithing, even as a recommended amount. Tithe on the Church started as a recommended amount. The problem with that it is that it soon becomes a measuring stick, and soon a mandate. That's what exactly happened in history.

Paul had it right: the money topic can hinder the Gospel. He was very very careful regarding that. I believe tithing hinders the Gospel nowadays: it makes the preachers look bad when they preach it, and lose some credibility in many people's eyes. Not everybody is an ignorant. They read the NT and they can see by themselves the obvious.

UPCI, WPF, ALJC on tithing.

Source UPCI ARTICLES of FAITH
TITHING

We believe tithing is God's financial plan to provide for His work, and has been since the days of Abraham. Tithing came with faith under Abraham; Moses' law enjoined it, and Israel practiced it when she was right with God; Jesus indorsed it (Matthew 23:23); and Paul said to lay by in store as God has prospered you. Do not rob God of His portion, viz., tithes and offerings. (Read Malachi 3.)

WPF

Tithing
Tithing was not only a tenth of one’s increase, but was also the first tenth of firstfruits. Beginning with the days of Creation, belonging to, and thus being holy unto the Lord, the idea of firstfruits is established from the very beginning. It is seen again in Genesis in Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18-20, Hebrews 7:4-10). Following this, Jacob also tithed, (Genesis 28:22) as did Israel in tithing to the Levites, (Numbers 18:21,22) and Jesus endorsed it as something which should be routine (Matthew 23:23). Witholding any part of the tithe was to rob God (Malachi 3:8-10). Giving to the Lord is a privilege belonging to his people. The motive for giving is love and an awareness that whatever one possesses, it is in fact, a possession of the Master and that we are merely His stewards. Cheerful giving is the knowledge that God will meet each need. (II Corinthians 9:7)

ALJC

Tithing
We believe tithing is God’s financial plan to provide for His work, and has been since the days of Abraham. Tithing came with faith under Abraham, Moses’ law enjoined it, Israel practiced it when she was right with God, Jesus endorsed it (Matthew 23:23), and Paul said to lay by in store as God has prospered you. Do not rob God of His portion, that is tithes and offerings (Read Malachi 3).

Notice that UPCI and ALJC are virtual copies.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

UPCI, WPF, ALJC on tithing.

Source UPCI ARTICLES of FAITH
TITHING

We believe tithing is God's financial plan to provide for His work, and has been since the days of Abraham. Tithing came with faith under Abraham; Moses' law enjoined it, and Israel practiced it when she was right with God; Jesus indorsed it (Matthew 23:23); and Paul said to lay by in store as God has prospered you. Do not rob God of His portion, viz., tithes and offerings. (Read Malachi 3.)

WPF

Tithing
Tithing was not only a tenth of one’s increase, but was also the first tenth of firstfruits. Beginning with the days of Creation, belonging to, and thus being holy unto the Lord, the idea of firstfruits is established from the very beginning. It is seen again in Genesis in Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedek (Genesis 14:18-20, Hebrews 7:4-10). Following this, Jacob also tithed, (Genesis 28:22) as did Israel in tithing to the Levites, (Numbers 18:21,22) and Jesus endorsed it as something which should be routine (Matthew 23:23). Witholding any part of the tithe was to rob God (Malachi 3:8-10). Giving to the Lord is a privilege belonging to his people. The motive for giving is love and an awareness that whatever one possesses, it is in fact, a possession of the Master and that we are merely His stewards. Cheerful giving is the knowledge that God will meet each need. (II Corinthians 9:7)

ALJC

Tithing
We believe tithing is God’s financial plan to provide for His work, and has been since the days of Abraham. Tithing came with faith under Abraham, Moses’ law enjoined it, Israel practiced it when she was right with God, Jesus endorsed it (Matthew 23:23), and Paul said to lay by in store as God has prospered you. Do not rob God of His portion, that is tithes and offerings (Read Malachi 3).

Notice that UPCI and ALJC are virtual copies.

Every time the new testament mentions firstfruit is referring to Jesus as the firstfruit of the resurrection, or us, as the firstfruit to the Lord. Never about money collection.

They are just twisting God's word to prove their point. Anyways, we know that.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

You definitely have not followed the conversation on this thread.

So, direct me to your posts where you answer my questions?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Every time the new testament mentions firstfruit is referring to Jesus as the firstfruit of the resurrection, or us, as the firstfruit to the Lord. Never about money collection.

They are just twisting God's word to prove their point. Anyways, we know that.

Firstfruits and tithes were never the same thing. There is such a misunderstanding of tithes. Some of it is , I believe, intentional. First fruits were delivered directly to the priests, tithes were generally delivered to the rank and file Levites. Priests only received one tenth of the Levitical tithe. They received all of the firstfruits.

This may be why I’ve never been able to get any pro-tithe pastor to answer the question:

Are you a Levite?

Or are you a priest?

Nicodemus, would you like to answer this question?

Because, if you are a priest, the biblical percentage of the tithe would be 10 percent. Not all of the tithe, as many teach. It’s pretty obvious that these doctrines are not based on scripture anyway. Some people pretend that they are though.

If you sort through the doctrines of the Apostolic churches that are posted, you will find untruths, half truths and omissions.

One omission is that they all carefully avoid the issue of what the tithe is to be used for. Compare this intentionally vague instruction with the careful and precise verbiage found in the Bible. It’s mostly made up. Because honesty about the scripture is a luxury they can’t afford. Unfortunately.

[aegsm76]

Just wondering what examples can be given of a "successful" church/work that does not accept tithes?
Not throwing stones, just really wondering.
Because I do not know of any.