Blacks and the UPCI

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by simplyme

I just started reading this thread, I can't BELIEVE that anyone would take what TS said seriously, anyone knowing TS should know this, and not think for a sec that he might be racist.
Gee, as silly as this forum is, half the time (not serious) you'd think everyone would know this by now.
People sure like to make a fuss over nothing.

Go drink some eggnog and decorate your tree!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

Okay to be serious ...

From 35 years of observation of the UPC's strongest districts, Louisiana and Texas, as well as the UPC in the south as a whole, I don't see where race relations were any worse than the world at large, but also not any better.

Blacks were pretty much looked at as "mascots" in the Louisiana and Texas Districts and not taken seriously as real leadership material.

Marvin Hicks preached Louisiana campmeeting in 1978.

He introduced a black couple that were starting a "black" church that came out of Calvary Tabernacle in Corpus.

He emphasized the "novelty" of this by saying behind the pulpit "these folks have been out in the sun too long and got a nice tan."

Yes, it was obviously meant for a good-natured joke. The campmeeting crowd of course laughed as well as the couple.

Of course they were just being good blacks in the UPC of the south in the seventies and knew their role as "mascots."

Even as intelligent a man as Tom Fred Tenney got caught up in the environment he was reared in around southwest Louisiana.

When Tenney was superintendent of Louisiana, a black choir from New Orleans sang at campmeeting. This was sometime in the eighties.

After the song, Tenney got up and said:

"There's not a prejudiced bone in my body so don't take this wrong. But we have just been treated to a Holy-Ghost-Chocolate-Sundae."

Again, it was meant to be a compliment laced with good-natured humor but even an intelligent and perceptive man like Tenney was subject to and his worldview affected by the rural south environment he grew up in.

Of course from today's perspective Hicks's statement was just plain ignorant and racist and Tenney's slightly less so.

I think in the Louisiana or Texas Districts of 2007 those statements would not be as well-accepted but in my opinion, I can't say they would go over like a lead balloon.

Face it, in the south most UPC "holiness standards"is a quixotic attempt to impose good old southern white-bread, white-boy, (well, for the world at large, it would be "beerbelly), orange-soda-belly culture on the entire world - at least on the entire culture of oneness pentecostalism.

It was good to see the New York Metro District with a multicultural board.

Of course in New York City, that's just a reflection of the population.

On the other hand, I find it ironic that the thread-starter claims to want to get away from "majoring on minors" and yet proceeds to do exactly that.

In black culture as a whole, their biggest hindrances are militant race-baiters like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton; shysters who prey on and make a good living from racial turmoil.

I live about 30 miles from Jena, Louisiana and saw that firsthand - the misrepresentations and lies the national media spread concerning the "Jena Six" would sink a battleship.

In the closed culture of the UPC and southern "apostolic" pentecostalism though, blacks have not near reached the stage of being "militant."

Even in 2007, from my observations, most seem to still be compliant "mascots" in an attempt to be accepted.

I am glad to see from this board though, that some mainline younger apostolics are politically diverse with some members of the Democrat party and concerned about political and social issues that affect their particular culture.

The half-joking (but really serious) pentecostal mantra - even by some moderates and libs like CC1 and Fred - that "you can't be a christian and be a democrat" is a bunch of malarkey.

And I'm a registered Republican though I'm becoming more Libertarian as I get older.

But in the UPC's strongest districts, race relations were and probably still are no better than the world at large.

Now before Brett or BOOMM or someone starts hollering about "Why don't you uproot the problems of the Methodists or Baptists"? - well, there obviously are some.

But of course these same guys will turn around and shout "We have the TRUTH! We have the HOLY GHOST! We have power that the Methodists and Baptists do not have!"

Okay then.

Pentecostals in the south should then be a social phenomenon and an exception regarding race relations ... but of course that is not the case.

That is why threads like this are relevant.

So in the predominantly southern-white-boy culture of the UPC in Louisana, Texas, Mississippi and Alabama, race relations are better in 2007 than in 1967, but obviously race relations are better in the world at large.

UPC churches in this area had more than their share of ignorant, militant racists.

I'm relating what I've seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears so believe me, I've been there, done that and got the t-shirt.

Sadly this is the truth however Tim it is not just a Southern issue. Most churches I where I preach in the South are intergrated but in the North very few are intergrated. Someone has said the most segregated hour in America is Sunday morning. Our black population is less than a dozen families in our county. Racism is a sin. And believe me black folks are not ignorant they do know when they are percieved as an equal or less than an equal. I would have hoped we moved beyond this in the 21st century.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

yes, I would sure hate 40 years of sacrifice to be burned...Glad I KNOW who called me and no a woman working for the kingdom does not go against the word of the Lord. A woman trying to be a man or a man trying to be a woman goes against the word of the Lord.

Sister Alvear since you have done what you are doing for nearly 50 years why would you care? There are some of us that just do not see a woman preaching being scriptural that is not a blot on your life or work. I would never cast a stone toward you or the good you have done. But to say I see it Biblically I just can't see it. However I do not deny the good you and other godly women have done both in forgeign fields and here in America.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Sadly this is the truth however Tim it is not just a Southern issue. Most churches I where I preach in the South are intergrated but in the North very few are intergrated. Someone has said the most segregated hour in America is Sunday morning. Our black population is less than a dozen families in our county. Racism is a sin. And believe me black folks are not ignorant they do know when they are percieved as an equal or less than an equal. I would have hoped we moved beyond this in the 21st century.

Elder,

This is not just a problem in the UPC, or the Apostolic church. The plant manager here in Omaha is an African-American, and he and I were talking the other day about this very issue. He is a Baptist, and he told me that it's sad, he drives past several churches much closer to his home in order to get to the one he attends. He doesn't blame anyone, he admits that he feels more comfortable attending a predominantly black church, but he laments the fact that this mindset exists, even within himself.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Elder,

This is not just a problem in the UPC, or the Apostolic church. The plant manager here in Omaha is an African-American, and he and I were talking the other day about this very issue. He is a Baptist, and he told me that it's sad, he drives past several churches much closer to his home in order to get to the one he attends. He doesn't blame anyone, he admits that he feels more comfortable attending a predominantly black church, but he laments the fact that this mindset exists, even within himself.

A Black Baptist church and a White Baptist church are worlds apart in the format of their worship atmosphere and policies. He would think he was in a bad funeral at a white Baptist church. The gulf is to great. Even among the Campbellites without the music the gulf is great because of the culture that is why blacks feel more at home in a Pentecostal type setting it is more like home.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Sadly this is the truth however Tim it is not just a Southern issue. Most churches I where I preach in the South are intergrated but in the North very few are intergrated. Someone has said the most segregated hour in America is Sunday morning. Our black population is less than a dozen families in our county. Racism is a sin. And believe me black folks are not ignorant they do know when they are percieved as an equal or less than an equal. I would have hoped we moved beyond this in the 21st century.

Amen Elder!

A word on when dealing with blacks. Never say anything to try show your not prejudice. Just be ourselves and accept them as eqaul brothers/sisters and they will know. To many times when whites say something to show there not prejudice they end up saying something that can offend. for example I was at a funeral where the growd was mostly black and the pastor of the lady that died was white. Before he preached he stated "I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks too" Now this 2007 and many blacks didn't grow up in the ghetto or projects. Some may take offense By "WRONG SIDE" of the tracks.

This why it's best to relax be oursleves and walk in love and they will discern it. Like you said they are not ignorant, some whites just think they are.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Amen Elder!

A word on when dealing with blacks. Never say anything to try show your not prejudice. Just be ourselves and accept them as eqaul brothers/sisters and they will know. To many times when whites say something to show there not prejudice they end up saying something that can offend. for example I was at a funeral where the growd was mostly black and the pastor of the lady that died was white. Before he preached he stated "I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks too" Now this 2007 and many blacks didn't grow up in the ghetto or projects. Some may take offense By "WRONG SIDE" of the tracks.

This why it's best to relax be oursleves and walk in love and they will discern it. Like you said they are not ignorant, some whites just think they are.

Excellent point!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Amen Elder!

A word on when dealing with blacks. Never say anything to try show your not prejudice. Just be ourselves and accept them as eqaul brothers/sisters and they will know. To many times when whites say something to show there not prejudice they end up saying something that can offend. for example I was at a funeral where the growd was mostly black and the pastor of the lady that died was white. Before he preached he stated "I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks too" Now this 2007 and many blacks didn't grow up in the ghetto or projects. Some may take offense By "WRONG SIDE" of the tracks.

This why it's best to relax be oursleves and walk in love and they will discern it. Like you said they are not ignorant, some whites just think they are.

For the last month an elderly black man has been coming on and off particularly on Sundays a couple of Suunday nights ago he hugged my neack and told me this was the only he had visited in our town where he felt like the pastor really wanted him there. I am hoping to see him saved. With all their years of dealing with prejudice they have a radar however some are prejudiced themselves toward white folks. I have made the statement I have never mistreated or looked down on a person because of their color and I refuse to take the blame for those who have. I can't help what my forefathers did it is NOT my sin.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

Okay to be serious ...

From 35 years of observation of the UPC's strongest districts, Louisiana and Texas, as well as the UPC in the south as a whole, I don't see where race relations were any worse than the world at large, but also not any better.

Blacks were pretty much looked at as "mascots" in the Louisiana and Texas Districts and not taken seriously as real leadership material.

Marvin Hicks preached Louisiana campmeeting in 1978.

He introduced a black couple that were starting a "black" church that came out of Calvary Tabernacle in Corpus.

He emphasized the "novelty" of this by saying behind the pulpit "these folks have been out in the sun too long and got a nice tan."

Yes, it was obviously meant for a good-natured joke. The campmeeting crowd of course laughed as well as the couple.

Of course they were just being good blacks in the UPC of the south in the seventies and knew their role as "mascots."

Even as intelligent a man as Tom Fred Tenney got caught up in the environment he was reared in around southwest Louisiana.

When Tenney was superintendent of Louisiana, a black choir from New Orleans sang at campmeeting. This was sometime in the eighties.

After the song, Tenney got up and said:

"There's not a prejudiced bone in my body so don't take this wrong. But we have just been treated to a Holy-Ghost-Chocolate-Sundae."

Again, it was meant to be a compliment laced with good-natured humor but even an intelligent and perceptive man like Tenney was subject to and his worldview affected by the rural south environment he grew up in.

Of course from today's perspective Hicks's statement was just plain ignorant and racist and Tenney's slightly less so.

I think in the Louisiana or Texas Districts of 2007 those statements would not be as well-accepted but in my opinion, I can't say they would go over like a lead balloon.

Face it, in the south most UPC "holiness standards"is a quixotic attempt to impose good old southern white-bread, white-boy, (well, for the world at large, it would be "beerbelly), orange-soda-belly culture on the entire world - at least on the entire culture of oneness pentecostalism.

It was good to see the New York Metro District with a multicultural board.

Of course in New York City, that's just a reflection of the population.

On the other hand, I find it ironic that the thread-starter claims to want to get away from "majoring on minors" and yet proceeds to do exactly that.

In black culture as a whole, their biggest hindrances are militant race-baiters like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton; shysters who prey on and make a good living from racial turmoil.

I live about 30 miles from Jena, Louisiana and saw that firsthand - the misrepresentations and lies the national media spread concerning the "Jena Six" would sink a battleship.

In the closed culture of the UPC and southern "apostolic" pentecostalism though, blacks have not near reached the stage of being "militant."

Even in 2007, from my observations, most seem to still be compliant "mascots" in an attempt to be accepted.

I am glad to see from this board though, that some mainline younger apostolics are politically diverse with some members of the Democrat party and concerned about political and social issues that affect their particular culture.

The half-joking (but really serious) pentecostal mantra - even by some moderates and libs like CC1 and Fred - that "you can't be a christian and be a democrat" is a bunch of malarkey.

And I'm a registered Republican though I'm becoming more Libertarian as I get older.

But in the UPC's strongest districts, race relations were and probably still are no better than the world at large.

Now before Brett or BOOMM or someone starts hollering about "Why don't you uproot the problems of the Methodists or Baptists"? - well, there obviously are some.

But of course these same guys will turn around and shout "We have the TRUTH! We have the HOLY GHOST! We have power that the Methodists and Baptists do not have!"

Okay then.

Pentecostals in the south should then be a social phenomenon and an exception regarding race relations ... but of course that is not the case.

That is why threads like this are relevant.

So in the predominantly southern-white-boy culture of the UPC in Louisana, Texas, Mississippi and Alabama, race relations are better in 2007 than in 1967, but obviously race relations are better in the world at large.

UPC churches in this area had more than their share of ignorant, militant racists.

I'm relating what I've seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears so believe me, I've been there, done that and got the t-shirt.

Excellent post .... Question for you TimLan ...

You said that the diversity of the NYMD board is a reflection of the population ... however can't the same be said about South Texas or even Louisiana. What I mean is ... why don't the boards in these multi-cultural districts reflect the diversity found in these states/regions?

[commonsense]

As always, Timlan, that was a good post!

Our local church has many black families that attend; not sure how many have become official members. (Acts 2:38)