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  #231  
Old 03-08-2020, 07:20 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
What does the above mean?
The question was asked in post 212:
Quote:

So do you think that most of the assemblies today are in rebellion to Gods word
?

It was my answer to that question. Churches that do not teach the the instructions Paul gave concerning the elders working with their own hands but rather expecting to get a regular salary from tithes are in rebellion to Apostolic teaching IMO.
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  #232  
Old 03-08-2020, 03:25 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post

If the Pastor gets up and starts threatening them with tithe and places undo burdens on them for something that’s not Godly, God will judge them. I’ve seen it! Church’s that had many members, very wealthy are now down to a couple saints and the Pastor is no longer there. Imagine going to church with your family in a facility that can seat 400 and there is only 25 of you.

God is not mocked...
Brother, this is a sad situation. This is the type of situation that a plural eldership is supposed to navigate through, make wise decisions for the good of the church and protect the people from danger. Sometimes the danger may be an out of control pastor. Wisdom is certainly needed. But so is knowledge. The wisdom supplements the knowledge. It is hard to see the good in this type of situation. The pastor basically wrecks the church and then leaves? Paul said WE are supposed to judge matters in the church. God has given us that responsibility.

People that were possibly several generations in that local assembly, are without a church home? They make a decision to go somewhere else? Or possibly nowhere? I don’t believe that’s God’s will. I’m not saying that God can’t turn it into something good for all concerned, but Paul taught that there is a time and place to protect the church. It sounds like somebody failed in their calling in this case, and I’m not talking about the pastor exclusively. Deacons have a function in the church. It is to look out for the church. It is not necessarily to be a yes man to the pastor.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post

Maybe learn Wisdom, if the church is content with their Pastor as full time and they pay him tithe, wage, salary, the gospel is being preached. If your Pastor isn’t a full time minister and doesn’t receive any tithe, wage, or salary the gospel is still being preached.
Sometimes wisdom is too late in coming. Sometimes it is ignored altogether. This sounds like one of those times. Good intentions? Maybe. Sometimes good intentions aren’t enough. The Bible talks about pastors slaughtering the sheep. Pastors hardly ever quote those verses.

Jer.23

[1] Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
[2] Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

It sounds like this pastor scattered the sheep. And the deacons allowed it, instead of manning up.

Jeremiah 10

[21] For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Where were the deacons when this event took place? It doesn’t seem that they were protecting the church.
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  #233  
Old 03-08-2020, 03:28 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
(continued from above...)



Not so, Mike.

First, he reminds the Corinthians that they were his work in the Lord. Was Paul from the church in Corinth or from the church in Antioch?

He obviously travelled, and having no abode, he remained in Corinth as a guest of the city, or perhaps a temporary resident, but not as a citizen. We know from Acts 18 and 19 that after Paul spent his time in Corinth, he travelled to the coasts of Ephesus. So, Paul's ministry was clearly itinerant in nature.

Secondly, if you look at the examples Paul gives, he mentions the following:

- Soldiers going off to war.

Roman soldiers and indeed all soldiers are by nature of their vocation itinerant.

- Shepherds who partake of the milk and wool and lamb of the flock.

Shepherds lived most of their lives outside, under the sky and stars. They walked and travelled and led their sheep across hill and valley to wherever the grass was greenest. So, again heavily itinerant.

- The priests and servants of the temple who ate from the sacrifices offered there.

The Levitical priesthood was divided by King David into 24 courses, who rotated and served in the temple in 8-day shifts (See 2 Chronicles 23:8) on a continuous 168-day cycle. They did not all live in Jerusalem. Rather, they travelled in from all over the country and lived and worked in the temple precinct for their scheduled time of year, then went home again.

- The one who plows and threshes

Anyone who knows anything about farming knows that almost all the hired hands who work farms around the world and in the ancient world, are and were immigrant workers who travelled as itinerant employees who helped sow and reap, shared in the produce and food the farm generates, receive their final wages, then go home.

Lastly, from the more stationary example, we can see the following:

- Planters of vineyards.

This example reflects Paul's work as the church planter who founded the Corinthians assembly. That is, like Paul, the one who digs out a vineyard and gets it going and makes it happen and generates a profit from it, is something similar to the apostle-evangelist who starts a church work.

Additionally, it should also be noted that like with farmers, often the general laborers of a vineyard are people who come in for the season, work the vines and help the owner, get paid, then leave.

So, even here there is a hint of itinerancy.



It is not Paul who generalizes, but you, and many other ministers, who don't seem to ever see any of the categorical differences Paul took great pains to lay out for us in his writings regarding the different gifts and the graces these gifts receive from the Lord, wherever and whenever Paul addresses the topic of ministry and church leadership structure.



Because Paul used the quote from Deuteronomy 25:4 as part of the case he made for his apostolic calling. What is chapter 9 about? It's about Paul defending his calling as the Corinthian assembly's founding apostle and evangelist. It's not about Paul being their local prophet and teacher like he had been at the church in Antioch according to Acts 13:1. It's about reminding and proving that he and Barnabas and Apollos were the ones who put in the labor and time as emissaries of Christ Jesus, and so, if the Corinthians were going to take the lead from anyone, it ought to be from them, and no one else (that is to say, the 10,000 instructors in Christ; See 1 Corinthians 4:15). He was trying to bring this mess of a church back into unity and focus, and help them realize that some of the people who were causing divisions through heresies and were propping themselves up as factional leaders in the church needed to be dressed down and ignored because they were carnal and didn't know what they were talking about or how to correctly lead a church.

And so, in this way, Paul and Barnabas and Apollos were the "oxen" who tread out the corn.



Addressed and shown to be otherwise in many cases.



We have to remember the context. Paul's use of this concept is not given to us as a generalized, universal principle, but as a specific appeal to help get the Corinthians focused on his ministry and ministry team, because they had gone too far afield into divisional rivalries. So, he transferred a certain amount of authority to both himself and Apollos, figuratively speaking, just to straighten out the issues until the dust cleared (See 1 Corinthians 4:6).



Addressed and shown that those who served in the temple lived of those things only insofar as they served in their courses on a rotating basis, then went home.



Again, remember the context. The Corinthians weren't just Paul's work in the Lord as if Paul was just a local prophet and teacher and pastor. They were his work in the Lord as a traveling apostle evangelist. So, I don't think we should extrapolate from that context the idea that Paul is in chapter 9 referring to all laboring ministers for all time in every place. He is only referring to himself and Barnabas, and by extension, Apollos, and perhaps Titus, who also came to Corinth for a short time.



As an aside, I am not going to address this right now.



Agreed.



Because you have been trained not to see the distinction? Why didn't Paul just write "Am I not a minister?" Or "Am I not a servant?"? If he had done that, this conversation would be going in an entirely different direction. But as it stands we cannot see the use of the word "apostle" then somehow think it's shorthand for every gift and ministry in the church.



No. As addressed and explained. But of particular note are prophets, pastors and teachers, who are typically local, non-traveling ministers who shepherd the saints and provide the sincere milk of the Word from house to house. These are always exhorted to work and provide for themselves and even help financially support others (I realize there are exceptions with prophets, such as Agabus, Silas, and etc. But in other cases, prophet remain in one place, like the five other men listed in Acts 13:1).



Well, hopefully, you see it differently now.



That's because you're not thinking of what an actual shepherd of sheep in the ancient and in many cases modern, world actually does. While such things as sheep farms exist, in the ancient world, sheep roamed the country side and their shepherds led them far and wide and were frequently never home. Compare it, if you will, to an over the road truck driver, who's only home a few days a month.



Just because you think of tithe that way, which is fine if you do, you have to recognize you have a very novel approach that many, if not most, do not share. Most do not divorce the word tithe from the associated legalities of the Torah. In fact, you can't even preach or teach on tithing as merely a 10 percent offering, from the Bible. You have to use a dictionary or your own words. Because every use of the word tithe is in some form or another associated with the law, even Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek and Jacob's vow.
Good stuff VS. You said it better than I could have.
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  #234  
Old 03-08-2020, 03:51 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
I think Coksiw reconciled it pretty good. The local ministry should work a job. The saints should at least periodically give them an offering for their extra time involvement laboring in the word.

If there are apostles or evangelists they should be counted worthy of full time support. And yet even they could be like Paul and work as is needed.



If they teach a "tithing" system yes. If they dont teach local ministry to work yes.
How much tent manufacturing was Paul involved in? How many times in the entire Bible was it mentioned that Paul manufactured tents?
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  #235  
Old 03-08-2020, 04:53 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
How much tent manufacturing was Paul involved in? How many times in the entire Bible was it mentioned that Paul manufactured tents?


Not as important as the fact he instructed the elders to work with their own hands is it? That he said he toiled night and day as to not be chargeable to the people.
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  #236  
Old 03-08-2020, 05:58 PM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

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Not as important as the fact he instructed the elders to work with their own hands is it? That he said he toiled night and day as to not be chargeable to the people.
Mike? You just took two epistles and combined them. I guess when Timothy and Silas came down from Macedonia they should of told Paul to put down the Bible and get a job Acts 18:5. So, after Peter and the apostles got everyone to sell their property, they got deacons to do the heavy lifting? All so they could loaf around praying and Bible studying? How long have you pastored a church? How long were you a missionary?
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  #237  
Old 03-08-2020, 06:44 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Mike? You just took two epistles and combined them. I guess when Timothy and Silas came down from Macedonia they should of told Paul to put down the Bible and get a job Acts 18:5. So, after Peter and the apostles got everyone to sell their property, they got deacons to do the heavy lifting? All so they could loaf around praying and Bible studying? How long have you pastored a church? How long were you a missionary?
I think Mike was talking about elders, not apostles. There is no reference to elders working full-time for the Gospel. There is of the apostles. Nevertheless, it was always free-will giving.
You may argue that modern pastors are like apostles: church planters; so they may need to work full-time to the ministry. I do have some doubts about generalizing that statement, but I can see some Pastors having the apostolic gift.
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  #238  
Old 03-08-2020, 06:54 PM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

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I think Mike was talking about elders, not apostles. There is no reference to elders working full-time for the Gospel. There is of the apostles. Nevertheless, it was always free-will giving.
You may argue that modern pastors are like apostles: church planters; so they may need to work full-time to the ministry. I do have some doubts about generalizing that statement, but I can see some Pastors having the apostolic gift.
Apostles are elders. Peter makes this statement that he was an elder. The whole five fold ministry are elders. What people see and have in their heads is a Roman Catholic template. Which is a clergy system of sectors called a parish. If we never had full time ministers and instead have what some people discribe on the Internet? Christianity would of been on the same level of Zoroastrians.
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  #239  
Old 03-08-2020, 06:57 PM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

What is even funnier, is that all of you came into Pentecost through a one pastoral system with tithing. Now you fight it, and have nothing better to replace it?
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Last edited by Evang.Benincasa; 03-08-2020 at 07:38 PM.
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  #240  
Old 03-09-2020, 12:29 AM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
What is even funnier, is that all of you came into Pentecost through a one pastoral system with tithing. Now you fight it, and have nothing better to replace it?
I came to the Gospel through a Trinitarian Pentecostal Church. Should I go back to it? The Oneness Pentecostal preachers came out of the Trinitarian Churches. Should they be thankful and come back to it? Baptism in Jesus name the same.

Do I have something better to replace it? Absolutely!! Some have done it already, oneness, holiness churches, and have running them without tithing; based totally on free-will. See my previous posts for examples.

The Apostles are elders, but not all elders are apostles. The Bible makes a distinction depending on the context. Just to give you an example:

[Act 15:6 NKJV] Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.

Brother, we are not being ridiculous, or stupid, or just bringing negative criticism.

Last edited by coksiw; 03-09-2020 at 12:32 AM.
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