Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

We do not reenact Jesus’ death, burial or resurrection. We, on an individual level, simply trust in, confess and rehearse it. We rehearse it in water baptism. We rehearse it in the Lord’s Supper. We rehearse it in the preaching of the Gospel every week. We rehearse it in worship by exalting the work of Christ rather than focusing on our own actions or experiences. We rehearse it in living lives dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ. In repentance we turn from what we could not do, to accept and claim what God has done for us. Water baptism is not an application of the death of Jesus but a recital that shows forth the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord. It was done for us two thousand years ago. We cannot distort or pervert holy baptism by making it a way to qualify people for salvation. Water baptism is the telling of the Gospel of Jesus in visual, tangible language, not the means of obtaining salvation. Our salvation was obtained by Jesus on that Cross long ago.

The means of salvation is humble faith IN Christ, not obedience TO baptism. We do not baptize out of fear of falling short of salvation. We baptize, not to recreate or reenact Christ’s work, but to symbolically show what He has done. Christians go wrong when they turn from reciting the Gospel to reenacting the Gospel through baptism. This is where “salvation is not said to be by God’s act outside us in Christ, but by its reenactment in us.” We are commanded to baptize because, it shows that we fell far short by our sin, but Jesus saves us to the uttermost through his freely taking away our sins on the Cross. He ever lives to make intercession for us!

Receiving the Holy Spirit is not something that we do to get saved. It is a gift, given to those who trust in the finished work of Christ alone. Instead of laboring in prayer at an altar for days and weeks trying to “get the Holy Ghost” so that one can know they are saved, the Bible teaches that we are given the Holy Spirit when we trust in Christ. We “get” the Spirit when we “get” Christ (Ephesians 1:13). How could it be otherwise? It is impossible to have Christ and still be missing something essential to our salvation. The “fulness” is in Christ.

So are you saying that everyone receives the holy ghost when they "trust Christ"? They get it when they believe the gospel?

[stmatthew]

Good ole hit and run J-Roc. Throw a post out there, and then leave.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Good ole hit and run J-Roc. Throw a post out there, and then leave.

I await your comments .... Matt .. see my post on page 22. Jeff ... ain't running... trust me.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

No sir ... I believe in identifying with His death, burial and resurrection in many ways ....

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1. The Lord's Supper

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Now does this we are to believe in transubstantiation?? ... or that the Lord's Supper must be done for salvation????

No, of course not ... Yet we participate, because we love Him and appreciate the salvation He afforded.

__________________________________________________ ___

2. Water Baptism

Romans 6:3-5. In it is a strong comparison between our baptism and Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

"3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,"

In baptism we see imagery of his death, burial and resurrection ... but He did these things once and for all ... I identified with these things and made a public proclamation of faith through obedience when I was baptized ....

The same writer of Romans tells us that we are saved through faith and not by our works so that we may boast ....

He also writes in Romans 3

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Again we are baptized because we are saved through faith ... evident by obedience.

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3. I also identify with his death, burial and resurrection EVERYDAY

Paul says:

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1 Corinthians 15:31

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Galatians 2:20


Now .... Matt does this mean that Paul was water baptized everyday of his Christian life???

Paul identifies with Christ death, burial and resurrection ... as we do .. daily in KNOWING HIM more and more each day ...

In Phillipians he states:

3:7 However, what things were gain to me, these have I counted loss for Christ.

3:8 Yes most assuredly, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ

3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death;

3:11 if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.



Paul is relating his experience of the unsurpassed value of knowing Christ, not based upon his own effort but based upon the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ ....

Paul has gone down the road of trying to impress God, and has seen that it has failed and it is worthless. He is seeking to know God’s righteousness now and in the resurrection.

Again, we obey all of his commandments through our faith in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ ...

Paul taught very plainly that baptism was our burial WITH CHRIST.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

But, I grow weary of our drawn out back and forths. It is obvious you will continue to believe what you believe, and I will continue to believe what I believe.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Paul taught very plainly that baptism was our burial WITH CHRIST.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

But, I grow weary of our drawn out back and forths. It is obvious you will continue to believe what you believe, and I will continue to believe what I believe.

If we are to take him literally Matt in this verse ... then we are to die literally also ...

and the last half of verse 4 says ...that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. does baptism also bring a literal resurrection??? ... which YOU only attribute to Spirit baptism ... it's imagery ...Matt ... for what he literally did ... we simply place our faith in the work of the Lamb .....

There are some inherent contradictions in your theology that you may want to examine.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

If we are to take him literally Matt in this verse ... then we are to die literally also ...

and the last half of verse 4 says ...that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. does baptism also bring a literal resurrection??? ... which YOU only attribute to Spirit baptism ... it's imagery ...Matt ... for what he literally did ... we simply place our faith in the work of the Lamb .....

There are some inherent contradictions in your theology that you may want to examine.

There are no contradictions Bro. You just see it from your perspective, and I see it from mine.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Good ole hit and run J-Roc. Throw a post out there, and then leave.

Sorry Bro. Matt for not responding right away...I am at work tonight and so it is hard for me to engage at the same pace...this forum is very very very active and I find it hard to keep up with so many missles flying from all directions. So please understand if I don't respond soon enough, it is not with the intention of hiding...and I'll do my best to get back as soon as I can.

Having said that, in response to your question, I believe the new birth takes place at the moment of genuine faith (which is why I also believe ministers should be diligent about explaining all the intricacies pertaining to the gospel-good news- message and that the Book of Romans is an excellent launching pad for one to explain this expediently). If the intricacies are dealt with, the hearer of the Word won't go away with a notion of "easy believism".

So when we explain this wonderful gospel message those who believe and accept this message as true will be convicted in their heart and will fully trust that Jesus is sufficient, that his righteousness is imputed to us, that his blood washes away our sin, that we in our own righteousness always miserably fall short, that not one of us is righteous enough to deserve pardon, but that His perfect and unblemished life and precious blood on the cross is what we can turn to. Our greatest act of obedience, I think, is believing and trusting Jesus and what he did for us is sufficient...and everything good and appropriate thing we do afterwards we do in obedience and to bring glory to God.

And that my friends, is real GOOD NEWS for us!

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Sorry Bro. Matt for not responding right away...I am at work tonight and so it is hard for me to engage at the same pace...this forum is very very very active and I find it hard to keep up with so many missles flying from all directions. So please understand if I don't respond soon enough, it is not with the intention of hiding...and I'll do my best to get back as soon as I can.

Having said that, in response to your question, I believe the new birth takes place at the moment of genuine faith (which is why I also believe ministers should be diligent about explaining all the intricacies pertaining to the gospel-good news- message and that the Book of Romans is an excellent launching pad for one to explain this expediently). If the intricacies are dealt with, the hearer of the Word won't go away with a notion of "easy believism".

So when we explain this wonderful gospel message those who believe and accept this message as true will be convicted in their heart and will fully trust that Jesus is sufficient, that his righteousness is imputed to us, that his blood washes away our sin, that we in our own righteousness always miserably fall short, that not one of us is righteous enough to deserve pardon, but that His perfect and unblemished life and precious blood on the cross is what we can turn to. Our greatest act of obedience, I think, is believing and trusting Jesus and what he did for us is sufficient...and everything good and appropriate thing we do afterwards we do in obedience and to bring glory to God.

And that my friends, is real GOOD NEWS for us!

I should have added a smilie, as I was not being serious.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Are we not saved now?

We have been saved from the penalty of sin.
We are being saved from the power of sin.
We shall be saved from the presence of sin.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Sorry Bro. Matt for not responding right away...I am at work tonight and so it is hard for me to engage at the same pace...this forum is very very very active and I find it hard to keep up with so many missles flying from all directions. So please understand if I don't respond soon enough, it is not with the intention of hiding...and I'll do my best to get back as soon as I can.

Having said that, in response to your question, I believe the new birth takes place at the moment of genuine faith (which is why I also believe ministers should be diligent about explaining all the intricacies pertaining to the gospel-good news- message and that the Book of Romans is an excellent launching pad for one to explain this expediently). If the intricacies are dealt with, the hearer of the Word won't go away with a notion of "easy believism".

So when we explain this wonderful gospel message those who believe and accept this message as true will be convicted in their heart and will fully trust that Jesus is sufficient, that his righteousness is imputed to us, that his blood washes away our sin, that we in our own righteousness always miserably fall short, that not one of us is righteous enough to deserve pardon, but that His perfect and unblemished life and precious blood on the cross is what we can turn to. Our greatest act of obedience, I think, is believing and trusting Jesus and what he did for us is sufficient...and everything good and appropriate thing we do afterwards we do in obedience and to bring glory to God.

And that my friends, is real GOOD NEWS for us!

This is a great post, I agree completely. Thanks J-Roc!!!