Resolution 3 Massacre Begins in South Texas Dist.

[Sister Alvear]

What do they mean exactly by light doctrine?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Whatever happened to autonomy of the local church and pastor?
So much for that concept.

The UPC never believed that. That was what caused the AMF to split in the 60's.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

What do they mean exactly by light doctrine?

Essentially that God holds us responsible for the light we have when it comes to our final salvation...

Historically some have not come to the fullness of light ... the Acts 2:38 message as preached by traditional Water and Spirit 3 steppers.

Sam has explained it like this:

I don't know if anyone outside of these forums uses the terms "one-stepper" and "three-stepper." I only went to ABI for one year. That was the 1956/1957 session. Bro. Norris taught that the "three steps" were the only way to be born again, or "saved", or to be in the NT church, or Body of Christ, or to be in the rapture or first resurrection. He taught that after the tribulation and millennium there was a second resurrection and here folks were judged by how well they walked in whatever light they had. He taught that those who were judged as "righteous" would receive eternal life and go into a new earth. After reading Bishop Haywood's book on the resurrection, I saw that he taught this also. My pastor from 1957-1963/64 was Bro. F.E. Curts. He taught basically the same thing but taught that the "righteous" would go to heaven and not the new earth. Some people call this the "light doctrine."

In my opinion, Bishop Haywood, Bro. Norris, and Bro. Curts would be "three-steppers" because they taught that salvation/regeneration required completing all three steps. The thing about eternal life was just sort of a way out of saying that everyone but OP's will go to Hell. Bro. Goss and others (including myself) would be "one-steppers" because of the belief that justification/salvation/regeneration happens at faith in Jesus and should be (but is not always) followed by water and Spirit baptism.

There are variations of this doctrine ... one being Friends of the Bride ... Taught by Clyde Haney, I believe.

Bernie Gillespie gives more details on this restorationist dispensational view ... as taught by various groups ... especially early Oneness pioneers ...

Here is a taste of it:

The central figure in Oneness theology was G. T. Haywood. He wrestled with the state of those who did not follow the New Birth doctrine held by many Oneness Pentecostals. He resolved the conflict in his mind by utilizing the "walking in all the light" model:

"The one question that is so often asked is, ‘are all those people who thought they were born of the Spirit, and were not, lost?' No, not by any means. They shall be given eternal life in the resurrection if they walked in all the light that was given them while they lived. God is a just Judge, and there is not unrighteousness in Him. But those who refuse to walk in the light shall be overtaken with darkness. (John 13:35, 36; see also John 15:22-24)." [G. T. Haywood, The Birth of the Spirit in the Days of the Apostles, (Indianapolis, IN: Christ Temple Book Store, n. d.), p. 12.]

The second figure in the development of Oneness teaching was A. D. Urshan. He used the same logic as Haywood to resolve the same issue:

Q. Would these folks be lost if they had not gone on to the water and Spirit birth?
A. No, for when they continued to walk in the light they had, they consequently entered into the deeper and higher divine experiences. 1 John 1:4-7. Also John 8:31-36. [Evangelist Andrew D. Urshan, Apostolic Faith Doctrine of the New Birth, (Cochrane, WI, self-published, 1941), p. 13.]

Admittedly, many of these "revelations" of light were no more than insights from biblical texts to be applied in one's Christian life. However, there were significant cases where much more was involved. In some instances, more than merely fresh understanding and application of the Gospel of Christ was proposed. In some radical forms of dispensationalism a new order or economy of God's working in salvation was taught. This included the expectation by some of a better or "full" salvation - greater light which God requires of people which was not known previously in Church history. This understanding lead to the whole "full gospel" movement which radically shaped the Protestant Church in America. [cp. "Can the Gospel be Fractured? for an extensive treatment of this subject.]

This drive to discover something "new" became a hallmark of Pentecostal piety, as noted by Howard Goss, a early leader of the Pentecostal movement:

"Walking in the light of God's revelation was considered the guarantee of unbroken fellowship with God. I feel that it still is, for that matter. Consequently, a preacher who did not dig up a new slant on some Scripture, or get some new revelation to his heart every so often; one who did not propagate it, defend it, and let it be known that if necessary he was prepared to lay down his life for it, was considered slow, dull, and unspiritual. Calling a man a "compromiser" killed his ministry far and wide. Because of this, no doubt, many new revelations, which began to cause confusion, were condoned." [Ethel E. Goss, The Winds of God, (Hazelwood, MO: Word Aflame Press, 1990), p. 245-6.]

Follow this link for a more detailed history of this view:

http://www.inchristalone.org/DispensationsChurchAge.htm


Some have kept the historical aspect of this teaching and separated it from applying to New Birth doctrine ... Just last year, Oneness Historian, JL Hall ... wrote a book entitled JL Hall Restoring the Apostolic Faith: History of the Early Pentecostal Movement" where he theorizes of the restoration impulse that has restored things to the original 1st century church structure and beliefs. He essentially debunks the theory held by some OP historians, like M. Arnold and Chalfant, regarding "remnant vs. restoration" history ... in which some claim OPs and the Apostolic Water and Spirit doctrine have survived throughout each generation .... both theories in my opinion have flaws.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by PastorA

it does create a problem.
the District Board still wants to be contacted in these cases ..

I know of one prominant UPC Pastor that went to the Promiseland for a funeral and was asked to speak...

To avoid any confusion about whether he was 'preaching' or not, the District Board asked the UPC Pastor to NOT take a Bible up with him.....

Interesting, so the UPCI has no faith that their ministers can either memorize scriptures nor preach without notes?????

[SDG]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Interesting, so the UPCI has no faith that their ministers can either memorize scriptures nor preach without notes?????

That's what Bible quizzers are for, silly.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I got to this part of the thread and had to say AMEN to this. While there may be a few Apostolics that post here, I do not think the forum as a whole represents what Apostolic is. Not sure if it ever did.


Of course, we only have to look at Daniel to see what a true Apostolic is, because he is more Apostolic than us all.

Sorry you feel this way, Matt.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Well ... looks like AD Urshan, Clyde Haney, Norris and GT Haywood taught devil doctrine ....

How sad ... those who harp about Apostolic heritage and old landmarks have appeared by osmosis in the last 50 years with total disregard and condescension for the pioneers of the Oneness movement ...

I'm not sure Clyde Haney actually taught this doctrine. That he believed it is a different story. He and my father discussed it many times.

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by stmatthew
I got to this part of the thread and had to say AMEN to this. While there may be a few Apostolics that post here, I do not think the forum as a whole represents what Apostolic is. Not sure if it ever did.

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Sorry you feel this way, Matt.

stmatthew, Lately you've been getting increasingly judgmental! What's going on with you? Is this your true colors making themselves known?

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by Pianoman

stmatthew, Lately you've been getting increasingly judgmental! What's going on with you? Is this your true colors making themselves known?

Perhaps the gentleman merely has a different definition of the word "Apostolic"...

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Pianoman

stmatthew, Lately you've been getting increasingly judgmental! What's going on with you? Is this your true colors making themselves known?

Been wondering the same thing myself. Oh well. No sense in worrying about it too much.