Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

If we love Him we will obey all of His commandments ....does a living tree ever stop growing???

So you believe in re-enacting too??

[SDG]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

So you believe in re-enacting too??

No .. you do.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

No .. you do.

But you just said you believe in "obey all of His commandments". IF you believe this, then you believe in re-enacting what Jesus did (i.e death, burial, resurrection)

[J-Roc]

No, he is simply rehearsing...

[Truthseeker]

Matt

do you agree remission of sins ia at baptism?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Matt

do you agree remission of sins ia at baptism?

Yes, I do.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Yes, I do.

So how did those folks get the Spirit with no remssions of sin yet?

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

But you just said you believe in "obey all of His commandments". IF you believe this, then you believe in re-enacting what Jesus did (i.e death, burial, resurrection)

We do not reenact Jesus’ death, burial or resurrection. We, on an individual level, simply trust in, confess and rehearse it. We rehearse it in water baptism. We rehearse it in the Lord’s Supper. We rehearse it in the preaching of the Gospel every week. We rehearse it in worship by exalting the work of Christ rather than focusing on our own actions or experiences. We rehearse it in living lives dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ. In repentance we turn from what we could not do, to accept and claim what God has done for us. Water baptism is not an application of the death of Jesus but a recital that shows forth the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord. It was done for us two thousand years ago. We cannot distort or pervert holy baptism by making it a way to qualify people for salvation. Water baptism is the telling of the Gospel of Jesus in visual, tangible language, not the means of obtaining salvation. Our salvation was obtained by Jesus on that Cross long ago.

The means of salvation is humble faith IN Christ, not obedience TO baptism. We do not baptize out of fear of falling short of salvation. We baptize, not to recreate or reenact Christ’s work, but to symbolically show what He has done. Christians go wrong when they turn from reciting the Gospel to reenacting the Gospel through baptism. This is where “salvation is not said to be by God’s act outside us in Christ, but by its reenactment in us.” We are commanded to baptize because, it shows that we fell far short by our sin, but Jesus saves us to the uttermost through his freely taking away our sins on the Cross. He ever lives to make intercession for us!

Receiving the Holy Spirit is not something that we do to get saved. It is a gift, given to those who trust in the finished work of Christ alone. Instead of laboring in prayer at an altar for days and weeks trying to “get the Holy Ghost” so that one can know they are saved, the Bible teaches that we are given the Holy Spirit when we trust in Christ. We “get” the Spirit when we “get” Christ (Ephesians 1:13). How could it be otherwise? It is impossible to have Christ and still be missing something essential to our salvation. The “fulness” is in Christ.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

So how did those folks get the Spirit with no remssions of sin yet?

I do not claim to be a theological giant, or even a good theological student for that matter.But I will try to answer to the best of my abilities.

I believe when a person repents, they die to the old man. I believe they are forgiven, but the sins have not been "put off" as of yet. I come very close to seeing justification at repentance. But I am not sure I can balance it when remission according to scripture does not occur until water baptism.

Anyway, the old sinful man is dead, though still being carried by the believer (Pauls "body of Death"). Since the sinful man is dead, by faith, the believe can receive the Holy Ghost prior to burying the old man. This does not negate the fact that the old man still must be put off.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

But you just said you believe in "obey all of His commandments". IF you believe this, then you believe in re-enacting what Jesus did (i.e death, burial, resurrection)

No sir ... I believe in identifying with His death, burial and resurrection in many ways ....

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1. The Lord's Supper

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Now does this we are to believe in transubstantiation?? ... or that the Lord's Supper must be done for salvation????

No, of course not ... Yet we participate, because we love Him and appreciate the salvation He afforded.

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2. Water Baptism

Romans 6:3-5. In it is a strong comparison between our baptism and Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

"3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,"

In baptism we see imagery of his death, burial and resurrection ... but He did these things once and for all ... I identified with these things and made a public proclamation of faith through obedience when I was baptized ....

The same writer of Romans tells us that we are saved through faith and not by our works so that we may boast ....

He also writes in Romans 3

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Again we are baptized because we are saved through faith ... evident by obedience.

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3. I also identify with his death, burial and resurrection EVERYDAY

Paul says:

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1 Corinthians 15:31

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Galatians 2:20


Now .... Matt does this mean that Paul was water baptized everyday of his Christian life???

Paul identifies with Christ death, burial and resurrection ... as we do .. daily in KNOWING HIM more and more each day ...

In Phillipians he states:

3:7 However, what things were gain to me, these have I counted loss for Christ.

3:8 Yes most assuredly, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ

3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death;

3:11 if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.



Paul is relating his experience of the unsurpassed value of knowing Christ, not based upon his own effort but based upon the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ ....

Paul has gone down the road of trying to impress God, and has seen that it has failed and it is worthless. He is seeking to know God’s righteousness now and in the resurrection.

Again, we obey all of his commandments through our faith in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ ...