McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamation

[Holy Ghost HH]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Please demonstrate from scripture that "the angel of" ABC church in Revelation is "the pastor". Thank you.

Well maybe if you where in the pews at his/her church it would be demonstrated with scripture. Then again you could not come against the teaching because you must obey them that hath the rule over you. Hahahaha

[RJR]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Please demonstrate from scripture that "the angel of" ABC church in Revelation is "the pastor". Thank you.

Better yet, please demonstrate it is not.

[RJR]

aggelos

ang'-el-os

From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.


Some Observations in similarities between a celestial being and a man called of God. Notice, no one is saying that a human minister is the only angel of the Bible!

They were both MADE...

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.


They are both SENT

Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Rom 10:14 and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

They are both described as MINISTER

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Minister: attendant, relief, service especially of the Christian teacher

Examples

Temptation Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Garden Luk 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Minister :to be an attendant, to wait upon as an host, teacher or friend
Read 2 Cor 7:12

Given charge and exercised care for men.

Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Make Known and interprets

Dan 10:5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
Dan 10:6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
2Co 11:6 But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.

Both Executes Judgement

Act 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
Dan 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
Dan 4:14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:

2Co 10:9 That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters.
2Co 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.
2Co 10:11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present
2Co 13:2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Watcher

Dan 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
SEER 1Sa 9:9 (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer

Notice Also...
Act 6:15 And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.
Jdg 13:6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:

Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. Act 23:8

[Godsdrummer]

I read a lot of subterfuge but nowhere did I read one verse that said God set one man over the local church and called him a pastor.

But Paul writes to at least two churches the hierarchy of the local church is God Christ husband, wife. Wonder why he did not say God, Christ, Pastor, husband, wife?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by RJR

aggelos

ang'-el-os

From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.


Some Observations in similarities between a celestial being and a man called of God. Notice, no one is saying that a human minister is the only angel of the Bible!

They were both MADE...

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.


They are both SENT

Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Rom 10:14 and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

They are both described as MINISTER

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Minister: attendant, relief, service especially of the Christian teacher

Examples

Temptation Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Garden Luk 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Minister :to be an attendant, to wait upon as an host, teacher or friend
Read 2 Cor 7:12

Given charge and exercised care for men.

Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Make Known and interprets

Dan 10:5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
Dan 10:6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
2Co 11:6 But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.

Both Executes Judgement

Act 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
Dan 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
Dan 4:14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:

2Co 10:9 That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters.
2Co 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.
2Co 10:11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present
2Co 13:2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Watcher

Dan 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
SEER 1Sa 9:9 (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer

Notice Also...
Act 6:15 And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.
Jdg 13:6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:

Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. Act 23:8

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, you did not demonstrate the seven angels of Revelation were, in fact, pastors.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by RJR

Better yet, please demonstrate it is not.

Obviously you are not familiar with the idea that a person making a claim has the burden of supporting that claim. Your response, by the way, is a demand to prove a negative. Are you a teacher?

[RJR]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I read a lot of subterfuge but nowhere did I read one verse that said God set one man over the local church and called him a pastor.

But Paul writes to at least two churches the hierarchy of the local church is God Christ husband, wife. Wonder why he did not say God, Christ, Pastor, husband, wife?

I have not read one verse in your few posts of this thread supporting your assertions. You have stated it was not Pastors over the churches please provide your explanation of who was over the churches in Rev. chapters 2 and 3?

Does a man and a woman have anyone "over them" and should they be under Biblical rule? Of course if a husband and wife would not submit (another Biblical term) to authority they sure would not submit to a committee in authority.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by RJR

I have not read one verse in your few posts of this thread supporting your assertions. You have stated it was not Pastors over the churches please provide your explanation of who was over the churches in Rev. chapters 2 and 3?

Does a man and a woman have anyone "over them" and should they be under Biblical rule? Of course if a husband and wife would not submit (another Biblical term) to authority they sure would not submit to a committee in authority.

Either you don't know your bible as well as you think you do, or you must have everything spelled out for you.

Mat 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
Mat 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Mat 20:24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Also Mark 10:42, Luke 22:25.

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

[good samaritan]

I think we are splitting hairs on some of this church government stuff. Churches should have strong men in the church who are a able to pull the reigns if any one person gets out of his God given jurisdiction. If a church is full of yes men who let the pastor do anything he wants to, then that is indictment against the people of that church.

I have attended a few different churches and have seen some abuse, but I have learned that we all answer to God individually. I have never had much issue submitting to church leadership, but there has been several times I had to say no. When the Bible talks about submission it always must stay within context with pleasing God and taking care of the responsibilities that God has given you personally.

What I am getting at is that I don't see a problem with churches having a singular pastor and matter of fact I think I see enough scripture to qualify it. The thing is that church people must understand that each of them have a individual responsibility to obey God for their self. We need elders in the church who are full of the Holy Ghost and with wisdom working with the pastor, and not below him.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I think we are splitting hairs on some of this church government stuff. Churches should have strong men in the church who are a able to pull the reigns if any one person gets out of his God given jurisdiction. If a church is full of yes men who let the pastor do anything he wants to, then that is indictment against the people of that church.

I have attended a few different churches and have seen some abuse, but I have learned that we all answer to God individually. I have never had much issue submitting to church leadership, but there has been several times I had to say no. When the Bible talks about submission it always must stay within context with pleasing God and taking care of the responsibilities that God has given you personally.

What I am getting at is that I don't see a problem with churches having a singular pastor and matter of fact I think I see enough scripture to qualify it. The thing is that church people must understand that each of them have a individual responsibility to obey God for their self. We need elders in the church who are full of the Holy Ghost and with wisdom working with the pastor, and not below him.

Spoken like a true pastor driven saint. And just where in scripture do you see enough to qualify a singular pastor?
What I see more in churches are saints that are more inclined to be obedient to a man than obedient to God.
Nowhere in scripture can it be found submit to the pastor to be saved, rather "study to show yourself approve" and "Seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling".
And if one wants to quote Hebrews 13:17, the word "obey" in that verse means "by persuasion" not out and out obedience just because he says he is the man of God!
And further more Jesus own words tell us that "we are not to be Lords".
Matt 20.
Some how we also seem to miss the Lords words when he tells us "not to be called teachers, fathers, or masters. Because you have one teacher, one father, and one master, Christ Jesus. Matt 23.