Obama tying himself in knots with Rick Warren

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Ferd, perhaps you need to understand something. It's one thing to say that as a prolife Christian you don't see how a Christian can be prochoice. It's another to accuse someone of being pro-abortion or an abortionist. Choice doesn't mean one condones abortion. Choice means that one believes the GOVERNMENT is unable to adequately address the issue and that GOVERNMENT involvement may make matters worse and far more complicated. Frankly, it's not rocket science. But hey...it gives some of the bullies an excuse to call names and be vipers.

United States. But, I'm not going to call someone who believes in choice "proabortion", "abortionist", "baby killer", etc. I'm more GROWN UP than that. I also know women who have been in dire circumstances and who faced the possibility of having to make that decision. And Ferd....the GUBBERMENT has no business in the matter. I think the Admin agreed with your over all sentiment that abortion is wrong....but if the Admin sided with allowing you to call names like those listed above...bro...I don't think that's right. I also think you're using the Admin's siding with you as license to say and abuse those who don't agree with you at will. Personally, I think that makes the Admin look bad and is very disrespectful of their authority.

Well, it looks like someone got tangled up in the liberal and left wing press' sementical lies.

Pro choice NOT being pro abortion? You are so mistaken and deluded.

Giving an individual ONE choice is not a choice at all. You go ahead and tell someone who is prochoice that a decision has been made NOT to choose an abortion and you will have a riot on your hand. ProChoice means a greater propensity to sanction abortion as non-murder because a woman's choice is HER choice giving no voice to the innocent.

I challenge you to go to an abortion clinic and ask them how many young vulnerable and stupid girls they talk OUT of an abortion or how they represent a choice other than ending their pregancy.

You remind me of that guy in the 80s...The Unknown comic, he lived his public life with a paper bag over his head.

Prochoice is synonymous with PROAbortion, don't kid yourself.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Rico

What do you think the tithe was used for, Ferd? Are you that dense? It wasn't to make the church rich. It was for the poor and needy. It was a WELFARE program instituted by GOD HIMSELF! Go argue with Him and tell Him His ideas are elephant dung. There's a whole lot more God ordered for the poor people than just a tithing program too. How about the welfare system for the widows in the church? That's a NT principle. Is that good enough for you? Good grief! You people are something else!

Rico,

I am in favor of helping the widows, ophans, and the needy. I do this on my own and through my church. I am relying upon my own judgment, and upon the judgment of the spirit-filled leaders of my church, in determining who qualifies as the virtuous poor.

Compare that to the institutionalized bureaucracy for which you have implicitly expressed your support: It is run by people whose chief motivation is to make sure that their numbers warrant more cash next year. They don't care if those they support are making an effort or looking for a sucker. There is no measure or requirement of virtue anywhere in the system, from the top to the bottom. Corruption is rampant, and the constancy of such programs has bred a culture of dependency that has re-enslaved, psychologically, generations of people.

If I tried to not support this system, men with guns would come and chat with me about it. Support is compulsory, coercive if necessary, not from the heart of a cheerful giver.

There is no comparison, for me, between OT and NT systems of aiding the unfortunate and state-run social welfare systems.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Well, it looks like someone got tangled up in the liberal and left wing press' sementical lies.

Pro choice NOT being pro abortion? You are so mistaken and deluded.

Giving an individual ONE choice is not a choice at all. You go ahead and tell someone who is prochoice that a decision has been made NOT to choose an abortion and you will have a riot on your hand. ProChoice means a greater propensity to sanction abortion as non-murder because a woman's choice is HER choice giving no voice to the innocent.

I challenge you to go to an abortion clinic and ask them how many young vulnerable and stupid girls they talk OUT of an abortion or how they represent a choice other than ending their pregancy.

You remind me of that guy in the 80s...The Unknown comic, he lived his public life with a paper bag over his head.

Prochoice is synonymous with PROAbortion, don't kid yourself.

Originally Posted by OP_Carl

Rico,

I am in favor of helping the widows, ophans, and the needy. I do this on my own and through my church. I am relying upon my own judgment, and upon the judgment of the spirit-filled leaders of my church, in determining who qualifies as the virtuous poor.

Compare that to the institutionalized bureaucracy for which you have implicitly expressed your support: It is run by people whose chief motivation is to make sure that their numbers warrant more cash next year. They don't care if those they support are making an effort or looking for a sucker. There is no measure or requirement of virtue anywhere in the system, from the top to the bottom. Corruption is rampant, and the constancy of such programs has bred a culture of dependency that has re-enslaved, psychologically, generations of people.

If I tried to not support this system, men with guns would come and chat with me about it. Support is compulsory, coercive if necessary, not from the heart of a cheerful giver.

There is no comparison, for me, between OT and NT systems of aiding the unfortunate and state-run social welfare systems.

Excellent posts. Such smart boys.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Aquila

...don't see how a Christian can be prochoice. ... Choice doesn't mean one condones abortion. Choice means that one believes the GOVERNMENT is unable to adequately address the issue and that GOVERNMENT involvement may make matters worse and far more complicated.

Do you believe that bible-based morality evolves? That it has a fluid definition? The only valid arena of this issue in which one may properly use the word 'choice' is in a person's choice to have sex. Adultery used to be illegal in many states, and until recently, was grounds for dismissal from the military. The laws of our nation were grounded in biblical morality. Now adultery and divorce is the rule, not the exception. What changed? The biblical stance on the issues? The definition of the derived morality? Or the hearts of the American people, in that they no longer yearn to keep their hearts right with a holy and just God?

Abortion is something that I pray becomes very rare in the United States.

Pray one way, vote the other, "hope" everything balances out . . . j/k

I also know women who have been in dire circumstances and who faced the possibility of having to make that decision.

There have also been women in dire circumstances who CHOSE to give up their baby for adoption, or left their baby on the doorstep of the orphanage. But if these women in dire circumstances "CHOOSE" to abandon, neglect, or kill their newborn baby after it's been out in the world for a bit, they go to prison. Why, do you reckon, is that?

Also, we can't help but notice that a provision that was put into place for those rare, risky pregancies - you know, that one in 20,000 where the life/health of the mother is TRULY at risk - or those women in dire circumstances, has ended up a drive-thru convenient alternative to contraception. And lastly, "dire circumstances?" Surely you can see that the subjective variation in that term is large enough to drive a semi through it. What's dire here is when you might not be able to afford your cable bill. What's dire in Haiti or Mali or Bangladesh are things like malaria and starvation.

Bottom line: We're letting people kill their kids for the sake of their personal convenience, and we're calling it some form of "empowerment" for women.

If a person isn't prepared to make sacrifice for their family, they aren't prepared to get married, much less have sex.

[Ferd]

I do very much appreciate Carp and OP Carl handling our good friends here!

Excelent thoughts gentlemen!