The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Do you believe in Fasting?

I believe in slowing.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Are you saying that with the prayer shawl on, or off?

Off, as always.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Off, as always.

How’d you get involved with that group?
Do they talk up a lot of Hebrew? Does the pastor want to be called rabbi?
But more importantly, how’d you and the wife end up there?

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

How’d you get involved with that group?
Do they talk up a lot of Hebrew? Does the pastor want to be called rabbi?
But more importantly, how’d you and the wife end up there?

No, they haven't got unto all those things. He just into the tallit thing. We have been here for years, but not happy and frustrated to be honest. We anticipate a change soon.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I believe in slowing.

Not from what I remember.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Not from what I remember.

You remember way too much.

I can’t have any fun.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You remember way too much.

I can’t have any fun.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Michael and Tithesmeister, I think you guys need to look at other verses too before jumping to conclusions.

Take into account that after that speech, Paul sent Timothy to Ephesus:

[1Ti 1:3 NKJV] 3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia--remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

And in the same letter he tells him:
[1Ti 5:17-18 NKJV] 17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer [is] worthy of his wages."

So ye need to reconcile Acts 20 with 1 Ti 5.

I think I can find consistency now between Acts 20 and 1 Ti 5.

[1Ti 5:3-4, 17 NKJV] 3 Honor widows who are really widows. 4 But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show piety at home and to repay their parents; for this is good and acceptable before God. ... 17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.
[1Ti 6:1 NKJV] 1 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and [His] doctrine may not be blasphemed.

The use of Honor here is as in "honor your parents". It means having them in high esteem and help them out as needed or even with gifts sometimes. Pretty much treating them as parents. So It is not a hiring, but support them as needed.

It seems to me that the support for full-time ministry is exclusive to apostles, who have to leave their job to go to other places. It looks to me that co-location (hospitality) was the method they used. And in that house they would be supported with expenses (food, clothing, etc...) until they were done with the church planting.
Paul himself did co-location but tried not to be a burden (food, clothing, etc...) to no one in the targeted city but instead use the offering from other churches and tent-making.

This goes in line with first-century synagogues. They didn't hire full-time ministers for the local assembly. They had vocations. In fact they were highly recommended to have a secular income: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12494-rabbi (see the Vocations of Rabbis section). I am not saying we should follow their steps exactly but it does give a good context of the cultural expectations around the new testament.

I also scanned the first-century church documents for full-time local ministers and I found nothing. What I found was actually a warning against any prophet or teacher asking for money.

Wow how things have changed since them. What surprises me is that you get that message so strong that you can't have church without full-time local ministers. The synagogues did it, first-century church did it, and even in my church I see a lot of people ministering (even pastoring) without a wage. In fact, one of those unsalaried pastors got many other churches started in the area we were doing church planting. They are all moved to congregate and serve because of their love for God and his work.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I think I can find consistency now between Acts 20 and 1 Ti 5.

[1Ti 5:3-4, 17 NKJV] 3 Honor widows who are really widows. 4 But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show piety at home and to repay their parents; for this is good and acceptable before God. ... 17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.
[1Ti 6:1 NKJV] 1 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and [His] doctrine may not be blasphemed.

The use of Honor here is as in "honor your parents". It means having them in high esteem and help them out as needed or even with gifts sometimes. Pretty much treating them as parents. So It is not a hiring, but support them as needed.

It seems to me that the support for full-time ministry is exclusive to apostles, who have to leave their job to go to other places. It looks to me that co-location (hospitality) was the method they used. And in that house they would be supported with expenses (food, clothing, etc...) until they were done with the church planting.
Paul himself did co-location but tried not to be a burden (food, clothing, etc...) to no one in the targeted city but instead use the offering from other churches and tent-making.

This goes in line with first-century synagogues. They didn't hire full-time ministers for the local assembly. They had vocations. In fact they were highly recommended to have a secular income: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12494-rabbi (see the Vocations of Rabbis section). I am not saying we should follow their steps exactly but it does give a good context of the cultural expectations around the new testament.

I also scanned the first-century church documents for full-time local ministers and I found nothing. What I found was actually a warning against any prophet or teacher asking for money.

Wow how things have changed since them. What surprises me is that you get that message so strong that you can't have church without full-time local ministers. The synagogues did it, first-century church did it, and even in my church I see a lot of people ministering (even pastoring) without a wage. In fact, one of those unsalaried pastors got many other churches started in the area we were doing church planting. They are all moved to congregate and serve because of their love for God and his work.

So do you think that most of the assemblies today are in rebellion to Gods word?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

So do you think that most of the assemblies today are in rebellion to Gods word?

It is more complex than that. The assembly has some autonomic regarding finances. They can decide to have a full-time minister. I know of one assembly that wanted a full-time pastor and rejected the current one (a friend of mine) because he wouldn’t want to quit his job.
The system is already in place, powered by ignorance or fraud, but that’s what some assemblies want.

My point is that the Pauline assembly doesn’t need a full-time Pastor to work, and in fact it worked without it for centuries.

My conclusion: We do not need a full-time minister to start and keep churches. Those that do it, I don’t judge them, since it is their choice. What I think is wrong is teaching tithing as currently taught by most apostolic churches.

Honestly, I just wanted to make sense of Acts 20 and 1 Tim 5.