Question about Acts 2:38: What about the martyrs?

[shazeep]

10The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep: He has sealed your eyes (the prophets); he has covered your heads (the seers). 10For the LORD has poured out upon you a spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes (the prophets), and covered your heads (the seers). 10For the LORD has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep, He has shut your eyes, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, the seers. 10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. 10For the LORD has poured out on you an overwhelming urge to sleep; He has shut your eyes--the prophets, and covered your heads--the seers.
11For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say, "Read this, please," they will answer, "I can't; it is sealed." 11And the vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.” 11The entire vision will be to you like the words of a sealed book, which when they give it to the one who is literate, saying, "Please read this," he will say, "I cannot, for it is sealed." 11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 11For you the entire vision will be like the words of a sealed document. If it is given to one who can read and he is asked to read it, he will say, "I can't read it, because it is sealed."
12Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say, "Read this, please," they will answer, "I don't know how to read." 12And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.” 12Then the book will be given to the one who is illiterate, saying, "Please read this." And he will say, "I cannot read." 12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. 12And if the document is given to one who cannot read and he is asked to read it, he will say, "I can't read."
13The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught. 13And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men, 13Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote, 13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: 13The Lord said: Because these people approach Me with their mouths to honor Me with lip-service-- yet their hearts are far from Me, and their worship consists of man-made rules learned by rote--
14Therefore once more I will astound these people with wonder upon wonder; the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish." 14therefore, behold, I will again do wonderful things with this people, with wonder upon wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden.” 14Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous; And the wisdom of their wise men will perish, And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed." 14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. 14therefore I will again confound these people with wonder after wonder. The wisdom of their wise men will vanish, and the understanding of the perceptive will be hidden.

[shazeep]

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i certainly understand why you say this, and encourage you to point out any untruth you may discern, preferably with Scripture. And i hope you are getting that i do not advocate abandoning Pentecostalism, if it works for you; after all, i learned most of this from a Pent. All i am asking is that you recognize how any knowledge might narrow down one's future point of view, as that "knowledge" becomes a filter.

As i'm sure you have discerned, Scripture is written in such a way as to divide two people on any one interpretation of a passage; religion seeks to make that decision for one, and then one may spend the rest of their days defending that interpretation, essentially closed off from any more illumination on the matter. So, it's a change your mind thing. Of course you have already done that; i am suggesting to not stop. Ever, perhaps, i don't know.

Merton suggests that if the you of 5 years ago does not consider the you of today a heretic, you are prolly not doing it right. I mean this as an invitation to Grace, to us, so mired in judgement. Certainly most, almost all, of the Muslims you will interact with--as if--are "lost," just like...everyone else. Pentecostal hierarchy notwithstanding. Are you going to ask them if they know the Lord? I suggest that there is a way to do that, to ask someone that, without words; and there is a way to witness Christ manifesting in someone who does not speak your language.

Do you smoke hashish before posting?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shazeep

What do you make of this?

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24)

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Do you smoke hashish before posting?

is every one of your posts going to be about inflating your ego?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What do you make of this?

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24)

it strikes me as a reply to

"Yet He did not say a word to her. So His disciples approached Him and urged Him, "Send her away because she cries out after us."

that could be taken different ways. It might be a commentary on the timing, or it might be meant facetiously. We don't typically understand it to be meant to be taken literally, right? So it seems to me, at a guess, that the whole passage is meant to illuminate a principle of faith.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shazeep

is every one of your posts going to be about inflating your ego?

No, my posts to you are about deflating your ego.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Ok, well my position there is that what i think about Muslims or anyone else is not going to affect whether they are actually "saved" or "lost," those two black and white states that we almost universally imagine to be true, but will reveal the state my heart is in, which is all i care about. Maybe WII hasn't gotten to Job yet. Perhaps you meant to impart understanding, rather than to understand. I don't know. It happens.

What I am trying to say has nothing to do with what I FEEL about muslims. That would be a subjective response. Mine is objective. their DOCTRINE is salvation by works, and in order to be a muslim, you have to follow that doctrine. And if you follow that doctrine, it is blatantly forbidden in the Bible. That's what I've been trying to say all along.

A card carrying muslim believes in salvation by works or they're not muslims. And that doctrine is what the bible says will leave a person lost.

And btw, i have already said all this, and i never said that i think Muslims are saved. I am not qualified to make such statements, owing to the beam in my eye. I am confident that their dogma provides a path for salvation, as i have read it myself, and seen Christ reflected in many Muslims.

But they emphasize that on the foundation of salvation by works. MAKE YOURSELF ACT GOOD. That is self-righteousness Self attains righteousness by self's good works. That is technically the correct meaning of self-righteousness. I feel people lost that meaning and ascribe to the term more of a mean of a better-than-you attitude. But the reason people think of a better-than-you attitude when they hear the term is because when SELF tries to make SELF HOLY, then self BOASTS, and that is where the holier-than-thou attitude arises. But it's only a secondary reaction to self-righteousness while the primary problem of self-righteousness is salvation by works.

Whether or not they would have put it that way verbally is completely irrelevant to me, because they were saving me from sleeping in the square in a strange town, when they would have preferred not to.

Well, i would say that just as one cannot say "all Muslims are lost" with any confidence, "We are saved" is equally revealed to be an illusion, as no one that you tell those words to has lived their life out to the end yet.

If everyone who seeks "salvation by works is lost," which the bible distinctly claims, then muslims are lost because you cannot be a muslim without believing in salvation by works. It has nothing to do with a mote their eye.

So, yes, you can say that all you like, and you can even preach it, because after all, there is a sense in which it is true; but i suggest that these may be mis-heard, and become stumbling blocks rather than pointers.

I honestly think you missed again and again my point about their lack of salvation. It is their doctrine that teaches salvation by works. How can people not be lost if their core doctrine is salvation by works, and the bible forbids it?

Beware that "faithful obedience" is not taken to mean "slavish verbal agreement," which "all Muslims are lost," "We are saved," and people being in disagreement with you over some jot or tittle automatically being condemned might indicate.

You are still not getting it if you still think the above is correct. Maybe my words above made my point finally clear.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

10The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep: He has sealed your eyes (the prophets); he has covered your heads (the seers). 10For the LORD has poured out upon you a spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes (the prophets), and covered your heads (the seers). 10For the LORD has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep, He has shut your eyes, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, the seers. 10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. 10For the LORD has poured out on you an overwhelming urge to sleep; He has shut your eyes--the prophets, and covered your heads--the seers.
11For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say, "Read this, please," they will answer, "I can't; it is sealed." 11And the vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.” 11The entire vision will be to you like the words of a sealed book, which when they give it to the one who is literate, saying, "Please read this," he will say, "I cannot, for it is sealed." 11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 11For you the entire vision will be like the words of a sealed document. If it is given to one who can read and he is asked to read it, he will say, "I can't read it, because it is sealed."
12Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say, "Read this, please," they will answer, "I don't know how to read." 12And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.” 12Then the book will be given to the one who is illiterate, saying, "Please read this." And he will say, "I cannot read." 12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. 12And if the document is given to one who cannot read and he is asked to read it, he will say, "I can't read."
13The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught. 13And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men, 13Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote, 13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: 13The Lord said: Because these people approach Me with their mouths to honor Me with lip-service-- yet their hearts are far from Me, and their worship consists of man-made rules learned by rote--
14Therefore once more I will astound these people with wonder upon wonder; the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish." 14therefore, behold, I will again do wonderful things with this people, with wonder upon wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden.” 14Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous; And the wisdom of their wise men will perish, And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed." 14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. 14therefore I will again confound these people with wonder after wonder. The wisdom of their wise men will vanish, and the understanding of the perceptive will be hidden.

That's why muslims cannot understand the BIBLE.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

No, my posts to you are about deflating your ego.

ha ok fair enough, perhaps--i came back here to fix my reaction, and you just beat me here. i know some this may seem heretical to you; but i suggest that you are a long way from Azusa St. now--prolly closer to ISIS, believe it or not--and so maybe it would be better if you just refute what you quoted specifically, or point out any ego in it, ty.