Homosexuality Or Legalism--Which Is Worse?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by philjones

Pelathais,

Are you saying that the reason we are not keeping our new converts and our young people is the fault of our positions on being a separated and readily identifiable, spiritually speaking, people?

No, not at all.

Originally Posted by philjones

Must we compromise our uniqueness to retain what the power of the blood is supposed to keep? I honestly think the reason we are struggling, like most other groups, is the cultural propensity for post modern thought and moral relativism. I have found that the genuinely hungry stick. Those who are following emotion or a specific urgent need outside of salvation seldom hang around. I have not had any that have said oh it was the legalism that drove me away. Have you heard that?

Yes I have. And it usually happens where the "legalism" is stressed in such a way that you have manipulation and not discipleship. I've seen entire congregations fall apart because the pastor and those in leadership insisted on doing things in such a heavy handed fashion.

Let me try to give examples without raising blame or pointing fingers (too much). Google "united pentecostal" and "cult." Look at the specific cases that are usually cited by some of the web sites you find. We all are probably familiar (and some what sick) of reading about some of these cases. Look at the individual churches and circumstances that occured.

I will contend that while, yes these are problematic situations, however the instances involved don't truly represent the UPC or "Apostolic" churches in general. In fact, the personalities are often known to have been "troublemakers" within the UPC. But these cases are real. peoples lives were impacted and this type of stuff happens a lot.

I think you, and others, are saying what I pointed out: "But they don't represent Apostolic churches." Yes! Good!

But they do happen. And the way to make it happen less is for us to speak out about it- not the anti-UPC and anti-Apostolic people.

And you are correct ("struggling like most other groups..."). Thankfully we are not as bad as many other groups. In fact, I think we're better than most. But we have to be proactive, especially in a media dominated society. We have to be the ones out front condemning the things that are wrong.

Can you imagine the difference it would have made for the Catholic church if their bishops had jumped on the first set of pedophile priests and made examples out of them? It would have saved them $6 Billion dollars and a lot of grief. We have to do for ourselves what those men failed to do for themselves.

[berkeley]

Legalism and Homosexuality.... light years apart!! good grief!!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In defence of Timmy, not that he asked for nor even needs my help...

His version is not all that "skewed." It may be, and I hope that this is the case, that what he describes is different from your experience. His précis does describe what a very large number of people have also described as their experiences.

Wait a minute my father was an atheist, and so were a large majority of his friends. He and his crew would have told you that it was more an experience with religious people as a whole. You are looking at the bug on the leaf by insisting that conservative, standard preaching Pentecostals have a large number of people adversely affected by their group. I would go further that in the time we are living in people are saying that all religion is adversely affecting the world as a whole. With failures like Juanita Bynum, Randy and Paula White, Jimmy Swaggart, and Jimmy Bakker the liberal Charismatic movement is not winning any roses. I believe as the stock market continues to overheat and mortgages are blowing out left and right, and more financial problems continue to slam into this country we shall see people returning to a more stable Christianity.

Originally Posted by pelathais

Given the fact that we are failing to retain our young people and even most of our converts I think it's healthy for us to re-evaluate the way we do things. In other words, are we coming up short of God's expectations in some way?

Will I lose my daughters if I tell them they can't hang out down in Fort Lauderdale city? Please, this is about relationship with the Holy Ghost and getting into the Word of God. People want the Word, and they fall in love with the Holy Ghost. This is about the persuasion of the Lord drawing all men nigh. I don't have to reinvent the wheel, I just need to hit the streets everyday and keep doing Bible studies and baptizing people who WANT to change their lives. We can't make anyone do anything, all we can do is preach the Word and let God give the increase.

Originally Posted by pelathais

Rather than looking at the "legalist" as the one who has "gone the extra mile," I think Timmy is suggesting that the "legalist" has simply "gone the wrong way."

That would not be correct, because anyone from a motocross racer to the woman who collects Hummel figuriens when you love something you become fanatical about it, and when the elders help with leading and teaching with balance, everyone is happier.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Can you compare the two? Just because a man preaches against television or short sleeves does that put him on the same level as a deviant? The question is ridiculous.

Yes, I agree. But I also observe that you're the one who "asked" the question. You framed it yourself to fit fit the "ridiculous" conclusion.

Of course, whoever framed the thread name appears to have put it together in the first place.

And you are very correct in emphasizing the need to worship and pray with people in order to understand them. At least IMO. But how far "out there" have you practiced this? Ever pray and worship with trinitarians? Charismatics? What about trying out the liturgical groups, Lutherans, Anglican and Catholics?

I have sensed some profound moves of God in some of the most unexpected places. But then again, I've also witnessed some real wacky stuff in my williness to open up like that.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by philjones

Kind of queer isn't it?

Oh so shoot me!

Oh here we go again.

[RevDWW]

Clearly worshiping the creature more than the Creator should top the list. All other sins are derived from this. Maybe we could say this is the top of the slippery slope, and once over the edge of serving self the slide can send one deep into depravity.

Romans 1:18 - 32 (KJV) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Oh here we go again.

What'd I do... What'd I do???

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

and here I thought we were having a gay old time.

You guyth are thsicking.

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

You guyth are thsicking.

Stick to you day job.... you'll never make it as a gay bob!

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by philjones

Stick to you day job.... you'll never make it as a gay bob!

Fortunately I have also never heard of such!