Healthcare is not a right

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Aegsm.... you didn't answer the question. The cost of the uninsured is what is driving our premiums up. Most of these people are employed, but they don't get health insurance from their employer. Numerous employers only schedule people for 38 hours a week, just to ensure that they are "part time" in order to evade having to provide insurance packages. These people go to the ER, get treatment, and then can't pay the bill. That loss is passed down to us in higher costs that drive up premiums. YOU ARE ALREADY PAYING FOR THE UNINSURED. The problem is that since we're dealing with private companies, there are fees and extra administration costs involved (nearly 31% extra). So the reality is... WE'RE WHO PAY SUCH HIGH PREMIUMS ARE ALREADY PAYING FOR THE UNINSURED IN THE MOST EXPENSIVE WAY POSSIBLE.

Do you believe that if a service is available to everyone, every able bodied individual should have to pay into the system? I do.

Here's your pathetic bait and switch. You accuse me wanting to force people to pay out the nose for others, but it is actually YOU who is defending a system wherein costs are inflated by paying for those who don't pay anything and corporate profits. It is my position that would require everyone to pay for access the open access to healthcare.

A - I spent a large portion of my life/career dealing with these issues.
The overall problem was caused when government got into the healthcare field.
So, we now have an industry where some individuals pay less than the market value for services and some individuals pay more.
And there is no easy way out.
Once an industry becomes reliant on government funds, it becomes very difficult to remove those funds.
If we were willing to tolerate the switch back to a market based healthcare system, the over cost would decline dramatically. But the switch would be very painful.
The other extreme would be to place healthcare totally in the governments hands (single payer) which would be a disaster, worse than a switch back to market based.
If I follow you correctly, you believe that everyone should have access to healthcare.
However, what you do not want to address is where you draw the line on what would be paid for in such a system.
And that is the crucial point.
Because, the so called "death panels" would become necessary and would judge on whether certain procedures need to be performed. And who is "worthy" of excess spending of the governments money.
Got to get back to work!

[Amanah]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...se-compassion/

Last week on CNN I debated a liberal commentator who complained that the problem with the Trump budget blueprint is that it lacks “compassion” for the poor, children and the disabled. This woman went on to ask me how I could defend a budget that would cut Meals on Wheels, after-school programs, and special-ed funding, because without the federal dollars, these vital services would go away.

This ideology that the government action is a sign of compassion is upside down and contrary to the Christian notion of charity.

We all as individuals can and should act compassionately and charitably. We can volunteer our time, energy and dollars to help the underprivileged. We can feed the hungry and house the homeless. Most of us feel a moral and ethical responsibility to do so — to “do unto others.”

And we do fulfill that obligation as Americans more than the citizens of almost any other nation. All the international statistics show Americans are the most charitable and the most likely to engage in volunteerism to help those in need. Whenever there is an international crisis — an earthquake, a flood, a war — Americans provide more assistance than those of any other nation.

But government by its nature is not compassionate. It can’t be, because as George Washington reminded us, “Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force,” and a “fearful master.” Government can only spend a dollar to help someone when it forcibly takes a dollar from someone else. At its core, government welfare is predicated on a false compassion. This isn’t to say that government should never take collective action to help people. But these actions are based on compulsion, not compassion.

Liberals are especially confused on this point. They believe that by supporting a government policy that takes money from one person and gives it to another is a sign of how compassionate and caring they are personally. It massages their consciences and egos.

[Esaias]

Liberals are communists, statists, and humanists. End of story.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

A - I spent a large portion of my life/career dealing with these issues.
The overall problem was caused when government got into the healthcare field.
So, we now have an industry where some individuals pay less than the market value for services and some individuals pay more.
And there is no easy way out.
Once an industry becomes reliant on government funds, it becomes very difficult to remove those funds.
If we were willing to tolerate the switch back to a market based healthcare system, the over cost would decline dramatically. But the switch would be very painful.
The other extreme would be to place healthcare totally in the governments hands (single payer) which would be a disaster, worse than a switch back to market based.

Can you name a nation that has a completely market based healthcare system that provides affordable healthcare and access to all?

If I follow you correctly, you believe that everyone should have access to healthcare.
However, what you do not want to address is where you draw the line on what would be paid for in such a system. And that is the crucial point.

Actually, I've specifically voiced support for H.R. 676. All medically necessary care would be funded through the single payer, including doctor visits, hospital care, prescriptions, mental health services, nursing home care, rehab, home care, eye care and dental care. For more information, check out the FAQ on H.R. 676. http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq#covered

Personally, I'd agree to not covering cosmetic procedures or alternative medical procedures or care due to the lack of clinical trials.

Because, the so called "death panels" would become necessary and would judge on whether certain procedures need to be performed. And who is "worthy" of excess spending of the governments money.

Oh, not the "death panel" thing again. Look, in 2007 (the year my mom died on account of not having health insurance) over 45,000 Americans perished from treatable conditions because they didn't have health insurance or adequate coverage. Essentially, healthcare was rationed to those who could pay for it... and my mother was left to die. So, let me inform you of a painful reality... the death panels already exist. They are managed from the finance departments of the insurance companies. Their will is essentially enforced over the healthcare and lives of sick individuals whenever they deny coverage. Healthcare is rationed by the death panel of the free market based on one's ability to pay every time someone dies because they couldn't afford health insurance to begin with.

As for the "death panels" you are so afraid of, I think perhaps you should do more research. Here's an excellent article to get you started on a fresh perspective:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ood_thing.html

People are stupid and emotional. They'll keep their all but actually dead grandpa hooked up to some respirator for weeks and months only to finally break down and accept that they have to let him go. That drives up costs for all of us and occupies much valuable space and resources (no matter what system is in place). Someone has to have the authority and knowledge to look at the facts, then look at the family, and tell them, "It's time to let your 99 year old grandfather go. He will not get better. This is inhumane. It's time." Meanwhile my 54 year old mother dies in her bathroom of a condition that could have been treated because she didn't have the coverage to see a specialist.

I think the estimated 45,000 Americans who were dying every year from treatable conditions because they didn't have health insurance would take your "death panels" any day.

[aegsm76]

A - I do not have time for a longer answer, but go to this link and read.
Germany has a multi-payer system that combines government and market forces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany