WOW!!! T F Tenney - "Let the Redeemed of the Lord DRESS SO"

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

IAM continues to amaze me!

[Trouvere]

NLYP thanks it made me homesick though I heard him here in Pensacola this year nothing is like La Dist.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by CC1

NYLP,

I am always amused at those who think people like AM and TFT are "liberal". Every time I hear them they sound like 99% of old time Pentecost.

Same with KH. I remember being so disappointed hearing one of his first sermons (maybe his first) after he was elected GS because he had the same old laundry list of legalism I have heard all of my life in the UPC. I don't know if he was trying to prove his stree cred in that sermon but it was the same old same old. This was from a guy who was supposedly a progressive and "liberal". I feel like TFT and AM are much the same.

What is amazing to me is the length taken to say that the inside is what informs the outside, but yet 3/4 of the sermon is focused on the outside.
Standards are the guardrails? I thought it was intimacy with Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The effort that it takes to police the standards is proof the it is not a natural outflowing of the Spirit.

Sorry, I don't believe it, we lived the standards for many years, they did not provide one iota of "guardrail" protection. I will therefore live a modest life in intimacy with my Lord and the presence of His Holy Spirit.

[Newman]

I note that the sermon may be from 2003. I am surprised by the sermon and even more surprised that one would close with statements picked out of Tertullian's arguments about women's attire.

Tertullian believed in addition to what was noted; that women were the gateway of the devil and that it was wrong to wear clothing that had been dyed a different color than its natural state (after all sheep weren't naturally purple). He was adamant that all women everywhere should be veiled.

However, the scariest part of the closing was in putting forth the idea that standards are designed to hold the faith forever.

Say what????

Modesty? Yes!! Of course. But let's be real for our culture and time. If men aren't expected to wear white robes [down to their feet]; then why use such a verse as a standard against shorts as opposed to pants too?

And if the Isrealites dressed distinctly and so then should we... get the men involved. NOT just the women. Why are women to dress distinctly and ministers to dress like their culture would expect of them?

Finally, let's not suggest that God doesn't want us altering our bodies if we are going to be ok with men shaving. Likewise; let's HONESTLY recognize that distinction of the sexes would be much more obvious if men didn't shave.

Standards are not what holds our faith forever (even if they were consistent which they certainly are not). Standards proposed by Tertillian didn't save the church from Cathalicism and the dark ages. Why would we imagine that such is a lifeboat of faith today?

Survival in a Storm
I watched a show/re-enaactment of five people trying to survive in the Ocean for a week on a raft that was NEVER INTENDED TO BE USED AS A SURVIVAL DEVISE. They were without food or water; and sharks were following them because of the blood trail they left because one of them was wounded in the storm...

After the show was over and I thought about it a few days; I told my husband that nobody had to die (as three of them did). We backed up the show to see the beginning again; where their yacht was sinking.

A couple of people ran for the very VISIBLE RAFT and threw it overboard; while one man by himself struggled with a compact capsule about the size of a suitcase; that when activated would pop up like a giant floating tent with specific items for survival such as a gps tracking system; something that made salt water safe to drink, and mirrors for signalling, etc.

The problem was that a couple people had already gone for the visible raft and weren't there to help with the capsule of survival. The man who wrestled with it on his own; could not hold onto it by himself in the storm and after a few hours it blew away while those on the raft looked on.

If the raft wouldn't have been there; I believe the people would have done everything they needed to do; to secure the capsule with the life surviving gear inside.

Trusting in the Invisible
Likewise; we are told to put on the whole armor of God. An armor that isn't visible to the naked eye and so too often we may cling to tradition because its visible and there is clearly a storm raging around us.

The church needs to reach for the harder things than tradition. The church needs to put on the whole armor of God that she may withstand the evil of the day and the church needs to pray always.

On Christ the solid rock I stand! All other ground is sinking sand...

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Newman

I note that the sermon may be from 2003. I am surprised by the sermon and even more surprised that one would close with statements picked out of Tertullian's arguments.

Tertullian believed in addition to what was noted; that women were the gateway of the devil and that it was wrong to wear clothing that had been dyed a different color than its natural state (after all sheep weren't naturally purple). He was adamant that all women everywhere should be veiled.

However, the scariest part of the closing was in putting forth the idea that standards are designed to hold the faith forever.

Say what????

Modesty? Yes!! Of course. But let's be real for our culture and time. If men aren't expected to wear white robes down to their feet; then why use such a verse as a standard against shorts as opposed to pants too?

And if the Isrealites dressed distinctly and so then should we... get the men involved. NOT just the women. Why are women to dress distinctly and ministers to dress like their culture would expect of them?

Finally, let's not suggest that God doesn't want us altering our bodies if we are going to be ok with men shaving. Likewise; let's HONESTLY recognize that distinction of the sexes would be much more obvious if men didn't shave.

Standards are not what holds our faith forever (even if they were consistent which they certainly are not). Standards proposed by Tertillian didn't save the church from Cathalicism and the dark ages. Why would we imagine that such is a lifeboat of faith today?

Survival in a Storm
I watched a show/re-enaactment of five people trying to survive in the Ocean for a week on a raft that was NEVER INTENDED TO BE USED AS A SURVIVAL DEVISE. They were without food or water; and sharks were following them because of the blood trail they left because one of them was wounded in the storm...

After the show was over and I thought about it a few days; I told my husband that nobody had to die (as three of them did). We backed up the show to see the beginning again; where their yacht was sinking.

A couple of people ran for the very VISIBLE RAFT and threw it overboard; while one man by himself struggled with a compact capsule about the size of a suitcase; that when activated would pop up like a giant floating tent with specific items for survival such as a gps tracking system; something that made salt water safe to drink, and mirrors for signalling, etc.

The problem was that a couple people had already gone for the visible raft and weren't there to help with the capsule of survival. The man who wrestled with it on his own; could not hold onto it by himself in the storm and after a few hours it blew away while those on the raft looked on.

If the raft wouldn't have been there; I believe the people would have done everything they needed to do; to secure the capsule with the life surviving gear inside.

Trusting in the Invisible
Likewise; we are told to put on the whole armor of God. An armor that isn't visible to the naked eye and so too often we may cling to tradition because its visible and there is clearly a storm raging around us.

The church needs to reach for the harder things than tradition. The church needs to put on the whole armor of God that she may withstand the evil of the day and the church needs to pray always.

On Christ the solid rock I stand! All other ground is sinking sand...

Wow, I love this post, what a powerful analogy with the raft. I agree that the focus on the outward immunizes against the internal, and gives a false sense of holiness. Outward standards can certainly be a form of godliness, but lacking the power that comes from intimacy with Jesus.

[rgcraig]

Outstanding Newman!

Absolutely perfect analogy - you nailed it!

[IAintMovin]

Originally Posted by NLYP

One of my CLOSEST friends walks out when TFT preaches at BOTT....says he is a charismatic!

WHATEVER!

Good Ol' Half The Facts NLYP...............I do not walk out on TFT at BOTT.......he is usually on Thursday Morning and I never go on Thursday Morning...........I sleep in or Mrs IAM and I do somthing different on Thursday Morning...........and miss all three services.......Now lets see........who was with me on my "boycott" this year........now who was it............OH YEAH now I remember.............DQ and her husband........... Good Ol' Half The Facts Dan.......new nickname for NLYP

Yeah and one of my friends thinks that NO MATTER WHAT THE MAN SAYS it is right.............takes his word over the Word of God





Whatevah...................

I will now await my phone call............ ROFL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[IAintMovin]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

IAM continues to amaze me!

Yeah as do people who play with Hollywood amaze me.....You go SH...........

[TalkLady]

Thanks for this post, Newman....When "The Standards" are discussed more than the Word of God in preaching and with lay members, that's when it's the scariest. When I am around my ultra-conservative friends and relatives and they tell me about what the preachers and evangelists preach, some of them will tell me "what they are still preaching against" ....Then they name the list. I have asked, "What scripture was used" ....They can't recall that, but they can recall that "he sure did blast them on 'the list'"....I'm not making this up. With due respect for the conservatives here, I don't know that this type of thing would be the case with their preaching or church members. I am just telling you how it is in my neck of the woods.

Originally Posted by Newman

I note that the sermon may be from 2003. I am surprised by the sermon and even more surprised that one would close with statements picked out of Tertullian's arguments about women's attire.

Tertullian believed in addition to what was noted; that women were the gateway of the devil and that it was wrong to wear clothing that had been dyed a different color than its natural state (after all sheep weren't naturally purple). He was adamant that all women everywhere should be veiled.

However, the scariest part of the closing was in putting forth the idea that standards are designed to hold the faith forever.

Say what????

Modesty? Yes!! Of course. But let's be real for our culture and time. If men aren't expected to wear white robes [down to their feet]; then why use such a verse as a standard against shorts as opposed to pants too?

And if the Isrealites dressed distinctly and so then should we... get the men involved. NOT just the women. Why are women to dress distinctly and ministers to dress like their culture would expect of them?

Finally, let's not suggest that God doesn't want us altering our bodies if we are going to be ok with men shaving. Likewise; let's HONESTLY recognize that distinction of the sexes would be much more obvious if men didn't shave.

Standards are not what holds our faith forever (even if they were consistent which they certainly are not). Standards proposed by Tertillian didn't save the church from Cathalicism and the dark ages. Why would we imagine that such is a lifeboat of faith today?

Survival in a Storm
I watched a show/re-enaactment of five people trying to survive in the Ocean for a week on a raft that was NEVER INTENDED TO BE USED AS A SURVIVAL DEVISE. They were without food or water; and sharks were following them because of the blood trail they left because one of them was wounded in the storm...

After the show was over and I thought about it a few days; I told my husband that nobody had to die (as three of them did). We backed up the show to see the beginning again; where their yacht was sinking.

A couple of people ran for the very VISIBLE RAFT and threw it overboard; while one man by himself struggled with a compact capsule about the size of a suitcase; that when activated would pop up like a giant floating tent with specific items for survival such as a gps tracking system; something that made salt water safe to drink, and mirrors for signalling, etc.

The problem was that a couple people had already gone for the visible raft and weren't there to help with the capsule of survival. The man who wrestled with it on his own; could not hold onto it by himself in the storm and after a few hours it blew away while those on the raft looked on.

If the raft wouldn't have been there; I believe the people would have done everything they needed to do; to secure the capsule with the life surviving gear inside.

Trusting in the Invisible
Likewise; we are told to put on the whole armor of God. An armor that isn't visible to the naked eye and so too often we may cling to tradition because its visible and there is clearly a storm raging around us.

The church needs to reach for the harder things than tradition. The church needs to put on the whole armor of God that she may withstand the evil of the day and the church needs to pray always.

On Christ the solid rock I stand! All other ground is sinking sand...

[CC1]

Originally Posted by crakjak

What is amazing to me is the length taken to say that the inside is what informs the outside, but yet 3/4 of the sermon is focused on the outside.
Standards are the guardrails? I thought it was intimacy with Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The effort that it takes to police the standards is proof the it is not a natural outflowing of the Spirit.

Sorry, I don't believe it, we lived the standards for many years, they did not provide one iota of "guardrail" protection. I will therefore live a modest life in intimacy with my Lord and the presence of His Holy Spirit.

Crackerjack,

Great post. I agree 100%. It is sermons like this from the supposedly "liberal" or "charismatic" wing of the UPC that discourages me greatly and lets me know that for the most part nothing has really changed. They may not be as rude and blunt about the legalism but it is still the focus and they stil equate corporate legalism with "holiness".