What is Nature of Original Sin?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I wonder if the Law of sin and death is not often confused with the doctrine of Original Sin in people's minds here. The Law of sin and death is irrevocable; the Doctrine of Original Sin is a completely different animal--and, as I mentioned on another thread, the facts of its adoption have been intentionally obscured from imo. OS is strictly Western Christian. A fatal premise. Peace!

I asked you these questions on that other thread so let me reask them here.

1. Do you believe that person is born innocent?

2. When do you believe that a person becomes defiled/ sinful?

3. How does a person become defiled/sinful?

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Luke

I asked you these questions on that other thread so let me reask them here.

1. Do you believe that person is born innocent?

2. When do you believe that a person becomes defiled/ sinful?

3. How does a person become defiled/sinful?

I believe that every person is born with the sin nature.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

I believe that every person is born with the sin nature.

I 100% agree with you.

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

A treatise on Original Sin
http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-the...ristian-Models

This articles completely ignores the teaching of Scripture:
Romans 5:11-13 (KJV)
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The article is quoted as saying: Is Original Sin in Scripture?; 'Most Orthodox theologians reject the idea of "'original guilt'"...Men automatically inherit Adam's corruption and mortality, but not his guilt.' Timothy Ware, The Orthodox Church (Middlesex, England 1963)

Romans 5 lays that fallacy to rest in a single verse, but it continues in verses 17-18:
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Original sin is known in two senses: the Fall of Adam as the "original" sin and the hereditary fallen nature and moral corruption that is passed down from Adam to his descendents. It is called "original" in that Adam, the first man, is the one who sinned and thus caused sin to enter the world. Even though Eve is the one who sinned first, because Adam is the Federal Head (representative of mankind), his fall included or represented all of humanity. Therefore, some hold that original sin includes the falling of all humanity. Some see original sin as Adam's fallen nature being passed to his descendents. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned," (Rom. 5:12).

Original sin is not a physical corruption, but a moral and spiritual corruption. It could be compared to the Reformed Doctrine of Total Depravity which states that sin has touched all parts of what a person is: heart, mind, soul, will, thoughts, desires, etc.

There has been much debate over the nature of the sin of Adam and how it affected mankind. Pelagius taught that Adam's sin influenced the human race only as a bad example and that all people are born in the same state as Adam was before his fall. Augustine taught that men inherit natural corruption from Adam.

The doctrine is the prerequisite for the Christian understanding of the meaning of Jesus’ crucifixion and atonement. At the return of Christ and the resurrection of all Christians, the sin nature will be eradicated.

Pelagianism derives its name from Pelagius who lived in the 5th century A.D. and was a teacher in Rome, though he was British by birth. It is a heresy dealing with the nature of man. Pelagius, whose family name was Morgan, taught that people had the ability to fulfill the commands of God by exercising the freedom of human will apart from the grace of God. In other words, a person's free will is totally capable of choosing God and/or to do good or bad without the aid of Divine intervention. Pelagianism teaches that man's nature is basically good. Thus it denies original sin, the doctrine that we have inherited a sinful nature from Adam. He said that Adam only hurt himself when he fell and all of his descendents were not affected by Adam's sin. Pelagius taught that a person is born with the same purity and moral abilities as Adam was when he was first made by God. He taught that people can choose God by the exercise of their free will and rational thought. God's grace, then, is merely an aid to help individuals come to Him.

Pelagianism fails to understand man's nature and weakness. We are by nature sinners (Eph. 2:3; Psalm 51:5). We all have sinned because sin entered the world through Adam: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12, NIV). Furthermore, Romans 3:10-12 says, “There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.” Therefore, we are unable to do God's will (Rom. 6:16; 7:14). We were affected by the fall of Adam, contrary to what Pelagius taught, and what many today would like to believe.

[Esaias]

Brother Larry, I don't have time right now, but later (Lord willing) I will respond in depth to your post concerning Pelagius, original sin, etc.

I think you may be somewhat misled concerning what Pelagius actually taught, although what Pelagius taught is actually irrelevant in the bigger picture.

More later.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

This articles completely ignores the teaching of Scripture:
Romans 5:11-13 (KJV)
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The article is quoted as saying: Is Original Sin in Scripture?; 'Most Orthodox theologians reject the idea of "'original guilt'"...Men automatically inherit Adam's corruption and mortality, but not his guilt.' Timothy Ware, The Orthodox Church (Middlesex, England 1963)

Romans 5 lays that fallacy to rest in a single verse, but it continues in verses 17-18:
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Original sin is known in two senses: the Fall of Adam as the "original" sin and the hereditary fallen nature and moral corruption that is passed down from Adam to his descendents. It is called "original" in that Adam, the first man, is the one who sinned and thus caused sin to enter the world. Even though Eve is the one who sinned first, because Adam is the Federal Head (representative of mankind), his fall included or represented all of humanity. Therefore, some hold that original sin includes the falling of all humanity. Some see original sin as Adam's fallen nature being passed to his descendents. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned," (Rom. 5:12).

Original sin is not a physical corruption, but a moral and spiritual corruption. It could be compared to the Reformed Doctrine of Total Depravity which states that sin has touched all parts of what a person is: heart, mind, soul, will, thoughts, desires, etc.

There has been much debate over the nature of the sin of Adam and how it affected mankind. Pelagius taught that Adam's sin influenced the human race only as a bad example and that all people are born in the same state as Adam was before his fall. Augustine taught that men inherit natural corruption from Adam.

The doctrine is the prerequisite for the Christian understanding of the meaning of Jesus’ crucifixion and atonement. At the return of Christ and the resurrection of all Christians, the sin nature will be eradicated.

Pelagianism derives its name from Pelagius who lived in the 5th century A.D. and was a teacher in Rome, though he was British by birth. It is a heresy dealing with the nature of man. Pelagius, whose family name was Morgan, taught that people had the ability to fulfill the commands of God by exercising the freedom of human will apart from the grace of God. In other words, a person's free will is totally capable of choosing God and/or to do good or bad without the aid of Divine intervention. Pelagianism teaches that man's nature is basically good. Thus it denies original sin, the doctrine that we have inherited a sinful nature from Adam. He said that Adam only hurt himself when he fell and all of his descendents were not affected by Adam's sin. Pelagius taught that a person is born with the same purity and moral abilities as Adam was when he was first made by God. He taught that people can choose God by the exercise of their free will and rational thought. God's grace, then, is merely an aid to help individuals come to Him.

Pelagianism fails to understand man's nature and weakness. We are by nature sinners (Eph. 2:3; Psalm 51:5). We all have sinned because sin entered the world through Adam: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12, NIV). Furthermore, Romans 3:10-12 says, “There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.” Therefore, we are unable to do God's will (Rom. 6:16; 7:14). We were affected by the fall of Adam, contrary to what Pelagius taught, and what many today would like to believe.

Unfortunately it seems that pelagianism is on the rise even though it is wrong.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Luke

I asked you these questions on that other thread so let me reask them here.

1. Do you believe that person is born innocent?

2. When do you believe that a person becomes defiled/ sinful?

3. How does a person become defiled/sinful?

Oh, I am sorry.
1) I believe that we are born into sin, and that this Law, of sin and death, makes your Q irrelevant. Please don't take that wrong; I just believe that the Q is now unanswerable in those terms. This is exactly what the Council of Trent did, was to parse the Law of sin and death, for nefarious ends.
2) When God himself has told me that they do; "I WILL no longer contend with man, who is evil FROM HIS YOUTH." I believe a person meets your description as soon as they commit their first conscious sin; strangely, most likely completely unconscious of the label or the consequences at the time.
3) See 2.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

I believe that every person is born with the sin nature.

I agree also; but this has no bearing upon the Doctrine of Original Sin, which permeates our bedrock, here in the West, anyway. You describe the Law of sin and death; "...all sin, and fall short of the glory of God." Absolutely. The Doctrine of Original Sin is not that.

Go, and see what happened, despite Augustine's discomfort, warnings, and actually expulsion from the Council of Trent. (OS was his idea, nominally) Your religious forebearers split from the rest of the Christian world over this; and it was the rest of the Christian world that must be judged to have done correctly. There, anyway.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I agree also; but this has no bearing upon the Doctrine of Original Sin, which permeates our bedrock, here in the West, anyway. You describe the Law of sin and death; "...all sin, and fall short of the glory of God." Absolutely. The Doctrine of Original Sin is not that.

Go, and see what happened, despite Augustine's discomfort, warnings, and actually expulsion from the Council of Trent. (OS was his idea, nominally) Your religious forebearers split from the rest of the Christian world over this; and it was the rest of the Christian world that must be judged to have done correctly. There, anyway.

Where do sin originate in mankind????

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

This articles completely ignores the teaching of Scripture:
Romans 5:11-13 (KJV)
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 [B]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Ha, Romans 5 is always the ref given, and the article in way ignore this verse, or even attempts to; what OS has become has no echo in this verse. Go, and see. Look at "Council of Trent," which, admit, you've never given 5 min to.