Guns: An Important Discussion

[Michael The Disciple]

What say you all about this scripture?

Hebrews 10:32-37

32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated , ye endured a great fight of afflictions;33Partly , whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used . 34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods , knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.37For yet a little while , and he that shall come will come , and will not tarry .

Please stay with this scripture. We will examine others sure but comment on these words.

[HRea]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

So you would allow your wife/girlfriend to be molested by another without taking whatever step was necessary? Just askin.

I think of all of the issues surrounding guns, open carry, concealed carry, self-defense, home security, 2nd Amendment rights, hunting, etc., your question strikes at the heart of the reason why the majority of gun supporters (me included) have made a decision to bear arms.

Consider this very similar Biblical example and God's response to it:

If the words of Malachi are true:

Malachi 3:6a For I am the LORD, I change not;

And the book of Hebrews is God Breathed:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Then consider how God delivered the Jews when this decree was enacted against them"

Esther 3:13 And the letters were sent by posts into all the king's provinces, to destroy, to kill, and to cause to perish, all Jews, both young and old, little children and women, in one day, even upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar, and to take the spoil of them for a prey.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

What say you all about this scripture?

Hebrews 10:32-37

32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated , ye endured a great fight of afflictions;33Partly , whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used . 34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods , knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.37For yet a little while , and he that shall come will come , and will not tarry .

Please stay with this scripture. We will examine others sure but comment on these words.

took joyfully the spoiling of your goods

They believed, correctly I guess, that they were supposed to give up their 'goods'....that it was the will of God for them to do this.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Since you asked for scripture and not my viewpoint..lol

Matt 5

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,[h] let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Love Your Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect

So how much emphasis is this kind of teaching given in the Churches? Personally in 38 years of hearing Christians teach only about 3 or 4 groups come to mind that I know trys to ingrain this in the members.

I know most are saying the teaching on turning the other chhek was an old time idiom. If one stuck you on the cheek he was trying to insult or degrade you. Yes in that case you should restrain yourself and figuratively speaking turn the other cheek. In other words just let it go.

Of course no one has ever provided any evidence it was just an idiom unless we are supposed to just take their word for it.

[Michael The Disciple]

Interesting teaching James gave us:

5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton ; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold , the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.8Be ye also patient ; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh . James 5:5-8

He says the wicked kill the just and they do not fight back. He admonishes the just to be patient until the coming of the Lord. The common Christian wisdom would have said buy yourselves AK'S or AR'S. Dont you know Jesus expects you to defend yourselves? Why did James say what he said?

Are we in a different class of Christian than they were? Or were they real Apostolic disciples of Yeshua?

Who are we?

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Interesting teaching James gave us:

5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton ; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold , the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.8Be ye also patient ; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh . James 5:5-8

He says the wicked kill the just and they do not fight back. He admonishes the just to be patient until the coming of the Lord. The common Christian wisdom would have said buy yourselves AK'S or AR'S. Dont you know Jesus expects you to defend yourselves? Why did James say what he said?

Are we in a different class of Christian than they were? Or were they real Apostolic disciples of Yeshua?

Who are we?

Is James speaking of religious persecution or someone breaking and entering?

It sounds to me like religious persecution from the likes of Saul before he was Paul. Jesus told his disciples to go and buy a sword. Peter carried one to Gethsemane and apparently Jesus did not tell him "no". Peter had it and even felt he could justifiably use it - this after listening to the Beattitudes and the many things Jesus taught for three and a half years.

Jesus healed the ear of Malchus and told Peter to put up his sword. This religious persecution was the will of God at that moment - Jesus had to go to Calvary.

There is a difference between living by the sword and having one to protect your family etc. James called for patience in the face of religious persecution. Self defense is a right codified even in the Mosaic Law - it is one of the most fundamental and basic human rights humanity has. Should a person defend themselves against a wild animal? I say absolutely and even when men act like animals I will defend my loved one's. If this offends someone's "Christian sensibilities" I say get away from the sloppy agape koolaid. I believe Nehemiah had the right idea. Build the wall but be ready to defend yourself against the animalistic tendencies of fallen man.

[RandyWayne]

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Is James speaking of religious persecution or someone breaking and entering?

It sounds to me like religious persecution from the likes of Saul before he was Paul. Jesus told his disciples to go and buy a sword. Peter carried one to Gethsemane and apparently Jesus did not tell him "no". Peter had it and even felt he could justifiably use it - this after listening to the Beattitudes and the many things Jesus taught for three and a half years.

Jesus healed the ear of Malchus and told Peter to put up his sword. This religious persecution was the will of God at that moment - Jesus had to go to Calvary.

There is a difference between living by the sword and having one to protect your family etc. James called for patience in the face of religious persecution. Self defense is a right codified even in the Mosaic Law - it is one of the most fundamental and basic human rights humanity has. Should a person defend themselves against a wild animal? I say absolutely and even when men act like animals I will defend my loved one's. If this offends someone's "Christian sensibilities" I say get away from the sloppy agape koolaid. I believe Nehemiah had the right idea. Build the wall but be ready to defend yourself against the animalistic tendencies of fallen man.

Yes Peter had a sword and carried it. I carry a 357Sig at times. I dont believe that is wrong. I also see that at that moment it was Gods will for Jesus to be taken to the cross. Jesus didnt want Peter to stop that nor did he wish to see Peter killed.

Next thing to consider. The book of Revelation shows that multitudes of Christians are going to die for their testimony and because they keep the Lords commands. The reasoning of Jesus to Peter was if I were delivered from this mob how would the scriptures be fulfilled?

So if Christians take arms to defend themselves by first killing the bad guys THEN how would those prophecies be fulfilled?

Actually what apostle James referred to when he said "you kill the just and he does not resist you" was not speaking of religous persecution but rather how the rich treat the poor.

Do you keep the Sabbath Day? It is also coded in the law of Moses. Are we under Moses or Jesus?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Randy,

I have heard the very same reasons given as in this video since I got into guns a long time ago. It all sounds perfectly logical from the standpoint of an American patriot.

A little odd tho the part about settlers and pioneers needed guns to protect themselves from Indians. The truth was THEY the American pioneers were trespassing on and stealing that very land FROM THE INDIANS!

So were the Indians actually justified in making war on THEM since they were taking their land, their game and also breaking covenant with them? Taking food out of their childrens mouths?

I have owned 10 "assault rifles" over the years. I enjoyed them a lot. I DO NOT think it is wrong to own them.

I am actually using this thread as a way to help myself come to a firm conclusion based on scripture. I actually went through this mental battle when the last assault weapons ban was passed in 94. I sat and listened to the Congressional roll call up the the last vote. It was so dramatic I think it passed by ONE VOTE if I recall.

After all Jesus said things about us not loving our lives to the death, and if we save our lives in this world we will lose them in the one to come?

[CC1]

The subject of guns is a sore one for me because I am very upset at myself for not buying a semi automatic rifle before all of this threat of a ban. Now they are scarce and the prices are sky high.

I want a KEL Tech SU16C that lists for $770 and six months ago could have been bought for $550. Now they are sold out everywhere and used ones are going for $900.

I am sure I can still find a $1200 Bushmaster but that is a lot of money that I don't have budgeted at this time. However if it looks like a ban will pass I will take out a loan if I have to in order to buy one and a bunch of 30 capacity clips.

My son bought me a 357 magnum revolver for Christmas for home protection that I am very happy about. The original owner of my home was murdered (shot) in the master bedroom by teenage robbers. I plan on it being the other way around if that happens to me.