I am very well aware of the proof texts that people use to refute eternal security and do not want to get into a back and forth debate on it on this particualr thread. I will probably start a thread on this topic some time down the road and we can talk about John 15 and other passages like it on there. I started this thread to get advice as to what I should do since I do not agree with the UPC on several doctrines such as this one, not to debate theological topics.
Can we have some background on yourself?
How long have you been a believer?
How long have you been attending the local UPC church?
__________________
I am not a member here -Do not PM me please?
I do not believe in a literal future 1000 year reign of Christ on earth
I do not believe that it is possible for someone who is truely saved to fall away and lose their salvation, and that those who fall away were never saved to begin with
Lots of folks don't believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ. Some believe that the Kingdom and only Kingdom is right now and there is no future Kingdom. Others believe that there is a spiritual kingdom right now and those folks will be raptured and that there will be a future literal kingdom on earth after Jesus returns with His saints. Whether that kingdom is a literal 1000 literal years or if that is some kind of a figurative number or not is something not agreed upon. I don't see how this would be a cause for leaving the UPC.
As far as "eternal security" or "predestination" or "OSAS" (Once Saved Always Saved) there are differences of opinion among Oneness Pentecostals on this. I think there is a Canadian organization of Oneness and Trinitarians that teach this. I think the name of the group is ACOP (Apostolic Churches of Canada) but I may have the name wrong.
You may be able to hold those opinions and still get along fine within a local church. But some of that may depend on how dogmatic you and/or your pastor is on these beliefs. You may just be able to agree to disagree and not make it an issue.
__________________
Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
I'll have to agree with Sam. The 1000 reign is hardly a staple of Oneness teaching and preaching. It may be some people's bread and butter, but personally, I have not heard it that much. I would have no problem with someone in the church I pastor not believing in the 1000 yr reign.
Now as far as the eternal security thing goes, I teach that our salvation is secure...however, I also teach that we can walk away from God, turn our backs on Him and be lost. I am also more concerned about people walking with God and having a relationship with Him than I am about them being able to cross all the "T's" and dot all the "I's" of soteriological issues.
If someone wants to come in and try to "convert" everyone to "their" way of seeing things and declare that we are all wrong, then we're going to have a serious issue. That is blatant disrespect of the church and the ministry. Respectful dialogue, however, is always welcomed and proper.
__________________
"Those who go after the "Sauls" among us often slay the Davids among us." Gene Edwards
How long have you been attending the local UPC church?
I probably should give some backround on myself. I attended a non-Oneness church before I became Oneness, started attending a Oneness church a little less than five years ago, and have been saved for over four years. Since then, for various reasons I have been studying the Bible emphatically, especially doctrine. In my studies, I have come to a belief in some things that differ from UPC teaching.
I probably should give some backround on myself. I attended a non-Oneness church before I became Oneness, started attending a Oneness church a little less than five years ago, and have been saved for over four years. Since then, for various reasons I have been studying the Bible emphatically, especially doctrine. In my studies, I have come to a belief in some things that differ from UPC teaching.
The question is, will you find a place that believes exactly what you believe?
I do not consider these two issues, and others, to be trivial for several reasons. First, I feel the call to be involved in the ministry in some way, shape or form, and to do so in the UPC, I would have to agree to the articles of faith, and I do not. Second, even though I do not necessarily believe that someone needs to believe exactally the way I do to be saved, the Bible warns us about false doctrine. Third, from my experience, Oneness Pentecostals do tend to be very staunch premillenialists, and staunchly against eternal security. Fourthly, the type of Palagian, "live right to prepare yourself for heaven," works salvation, that is often, but not always associated with denying the doctrine of eternal security, is extremely widespread in Oneness circles, and I do believe it to be "another gospel" based upon my study of scripture.
I do not consider these two issues, and others, to be trivial for several reasons. First, I feel the call to be involved in the ministry in some way, shape or form, and to do so in the UPC, I would have to agree to the articles of faith, and I do not. Second, even though I do not necessarily believe that someone needs to believe exactally the way I do to be saved, the Bible warns us about false doctrine. Third, from my experience, Oneness Pentecostals do tend to be very staunch premillenialists, and staunchly against eternal security. Fourthly, the type of Palagian, "live right to prepare yourself for heaven," works salvation, that is often, but not always associated with denying the doctrine of eternal security, is extremely widespread in Oneness circles, and I do believe it to be "another gospel" based upon my study of scripture.
Maybe I should have clarified myself. I understand we all have some non-negotiables as far as doctrine. I cannot condone anything outside of Acts 2:38 New Birth message as legitamate, or the provision of healing. Those we cannot let go. But there are some points of doctrine that I have no problem attanding churches that do not see it the way I see it.
I think IF you can find a church that teaches your core doctrines, and not worry about the others, you are doing good. (Not that I agree with the doctrines you have stated )
As far as my mentioning family, I know the importance of raising my kids in a Godly atmosphere that includes regular church attendance.
I attend a UPC church, and have for years, and for months now, I have been becoming increasingly disturbed with several of the doctrines that they teach, as well as several doctrines that are held by the majority of other Oneness Pentecostal organizations, since they contradict what I see when I open up my Bible. (However, I still DO believe in the Oneness of God, and in the Acts 2:38 message.) I would like to leave, but I do not know where to go to, or even for that matter, who to talk to. That is why I am starting this thread. Perhaps some of you have some suggestions on what you think I should do.
Keep in mind that I do not wish to debate specific theological topics on this thread since it is just going to side track the conversation away from where I intend on it going. Also keep in mind that I do not wish to read a bunch of stuff bashing the UPC, especially from Trinitarians.
Thanks in advance for all of your suggestions.
You have to find out what is more important to you.
I attend a UPC church even though I don't agree with the standards they teach, however, since the core doctrine is something I believe with all my heart, and no other church in my area preaches it, then I attend there.
If they have a problem with my wearing pants, God will have to help them get over that. I don't go to church based on what they wear, they shouldn't be concerned with what I'm wearing.
__________________
I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
I do not believe in a literal future 1000 year reign of Christ on earth
I do not believe that it is possible for someone who is truely saved to fall away and lose their salvation, and that those who fall away were never saved to begin with
I don't know if you are tying in the first part of the sentence with the second, but but bolded part alone can indeed happen. If one chooses to leave God and live a life of sin, they are no longer saved. This doesn't mean they can't come back and ask forgiveness, but according to the Bible, there are people who left and were lost.
However, if what you are saying is that people believe that those who left weren't saved to begin with, I also don't agree with that idea.
__________________
I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
)
Linear Mode
