The Legalist on Covenant

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Faith moved people to obey...Faith is only one factor involved...

depending on what is meant by "faith" this is correct it is only "ONE" factor involved,

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Daniel for the record I agree with the Legalist's premise as far as the New Covenant being a type of contract.

Very few have a grasp of both theology and law, and I disagree with the author of your article. Of course since he was raised in the Netherlands and his only degree as far as I can tell was in theology, and perhaps they have a different understanding of contract law than American Jurisprudence does.

As for the berith- even in contract law there is such a thing as a unilateral contract.

The old testament was just that, a legally binding agreement between God and man which went into effect at the death of the testator.

The New Covenant- (which I prefer to Testament, because there will be only one death) began with the fulfillment of that "old" testament.

So as far as principle, I would agree with the Legalist.

Now application is a different matter. I cannot see where Romans 6 ties into that per se. A condition precedent? I find that a stretch.

Baptism is a condition of coming "into" Christ. It is the point at which we are "united" togethor. It is the appointed time. We cannot be IN covenant in the sense of NEW until that time and we are UNITED WITH HIM IN "DEATH" and brought to the newness of life.

WE offer ourselves as the gift. The sacrifical area already has Christ realized but to be untied with his death we are baptized in offering ourselves as a purchasing aspect of salvation. Thus we have repentance a complete turning anc change of mind to serve him and give all. Which is a motion toward baptism and covenant and being united with him.


Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, (REPENTANT HEART)

and then come and offer thy gift. (Principle of Baptism as we are the gift offered at the alter of sacrifice to be united with Christ. Without true committment your offering/payment is not sufficient to be united in death(sacrifice) with Christ)

Thus we have..... REPENT and BE BAPTIZED or TURN TO HIM AND AND BE UNITED WITH CHRIST FOR the REMISSION OF SINS!

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

uuhhh Yes and if you understood the many views of faith alone which many include as repentance(with a different context) you would understand why I said what I said. The comments and supporting text are "faith alone" in principle. Whether that is his full belief remains to be seen but what is presented clearly is "faith alone" in a certain context. I believe in faith alone as well but not in the same context. In theological teaching you have a lot of overlap in phrases that are not meant or used the same way. My view is not accepted as "faith alone" by most as they consider it "works" but I believe it is correct within the context.

Well, I have found out that in many of these discussions that no one will actually define what they believe. If a person truly has faith then everything else will take care of itself.

Our faith, given to us as a gift by God doesn't include repentance but results in repentance. When we are born again of God he starts a work in us that will be finished.

True faith is a belief in the promise that whatever has to be done for my salvation has already be accomplished from the foundation of the world. I believe that if I totally submit my heart and life to God he will keep me and ultimately glorify me.

Any works that I am to accomplish will happen as a result of the grace extended to me by God. Not because I did something within myself.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Well, I have found out that in many of these discussions that no one will actually define what they believe. If a person truly has faith then everything else will take care of itself.

I would agree with that as that is why I say God is just. I teach what I believe but God judges and it will all work out.

Our faith, given to us as a gift by God doesn't include repentance but results in repentance. When we are born again of God he starts a work in us that will be finished.

This is where different views would disagree. Many see repentance as "belief" not a turning from sin. I would agree it is a turning which involves belief but that it also involves turning from all to him which would be sin included.
This is true IF we do as he commands. Scripture does not say though that once born again you never fall back and away from God. That is th whole point of the word "should" in John in many vs. IF you.... you should. Why God is faithful if we are faithful to do his will.

True faith is a belief in the promise that whatever has to be done for my salvation has already be accomplished from the foundation of the world. I believe that if I totally submit my heart and life to God he will keep me and ultimately glorify me.

I would agree with this but faith is multifaceted depending on the context. One can give a definition all he wants but what is attachedto a word in context gives if form and meaning. Thus I agree and I also disagree. Your limited context.... yes I would agree.

Any works that I am to accomplish will happen as a result of the grace extended to me by God. Not because I did something within myself.

Yes as only good comes from God. Thus all that which is good (righteous) is a extension of him. His laws and Word for you daily are his gift but you do not have faith until you respond to them. Faith is a gift but it is also based on synergistic properties. As his Word comes forth for you to choose to believe thus he is the author of your faith as it was HIS Word not your own. That is why all righteousness is God's as all that is righteous is because HE is the source of it not us. It is based on who he is. Thus the good works needed to continue abide in him
cannot claim to be our own but his. Works unto salvation is about "source"! We cannot save ourselves yet at the same time we do save ourselves.... Why? We cannot bring about the source of salvation. Nothing in us could create or bring about the offer or source to obtain it in the sense of "source" of salvation. Thus Jesus paid a price(sacrifice and known as Grace) ot obtain it for us. Then he offers salvation to all freely who will pay a price. Thus salvation is a gift or "offering" to us to accept upon conditions. Thus we purchase it from HIM who is the holder or source of salvation by his GRACE(doing us a favor in obtaining it).

[jfrog]

Was Abraham saved by Christ's work or without it?

If you say it was by Christ's work as I expect that you will...

Then where did he enter his covenant with Christ? It wasn't by baptism because he wasn't baptized... So it must have been by faith alone, right?

[Truthseeker]

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him ;
KJV

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Was Abraham saved by Christ's work or without it?

If you say it was by Christ's work as I expect that you will...

Then where did he enter his covenant with Christ? It wasn't by baptism because he wasn't baptized... So it must have been by faith alone, right?

Faulty logic...

We are saved by Christ's work but not ONLY by his work. He is the source of salvation but because he is the source does not mean you are saved. Abrahams covenant was brought true by his faithfulness to God. His response was judged RIGHT. Just as faith(context overlap) is a righteous deed your obedience/submission is judged a righteous deed which is judged as faithful. I am sorry are we still dealing with types or actualities.... Baptism is seen as the appointed time of you REALIZING the atonement of Christ in covenant. That is why it is NEW not OLD!

I can say yes and no to "faith alone" see my previous post. It is a matter of context of what is attached to it.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him ;
KJV

Amen!

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Faulty logic...

We are saved by Christ's work but not ONLY by his work. He is the source of salvation but because he is the source does not mean you are saved. Abrahams covenant was brought true by his faithfulness to God. His response was judged RIGHT. Just as faith(context overlap) is a righteous deed your obedience/submission is judged a righteous deed which is judged as faithful. I am sorry are we still dealing with types or actualities.... Baptism is seen as the appointed time of you REALIZING the atonement of Christ in covenant. That is why it is NEW not OLD!

I can say yes and no to "faith alone" see my previous post. It is a matter of context of what is attached to it.

Abraham and Elijah and all those other great men of the old covenant could not keep the law. They each sinned. At least that's what I thought Christians believed...

So the covenant that they tried to keep could not save them. They needed Christ. Now if all believers must enter into Christ at baptism then Abraham and Elijah and the other great men have not kept either the old covenant or the new. On what basis can we call them saved?

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

ROFL.... I will deal with this when I have time. Have some meetings today. Thanks for your concern. Spoken like a true Faith Only person!

"Faith only"? Is there something else? Did I miss something?