Is "free will" really free?

Originally Posted by crakjak

Our capacity to choose or our free choices, particularly the bad ones, are obstacles that God must work around as He brings His loving purposes to fruition.

I don't agree that God must "work around" anything. His power and sovereignty are absolute.

We are not free in our choices to thwart God's purpose to redeem all of His creation (the Arminan view).

The Arminian view is that we are free to thwart God's purpose and that God will not interfere with that freedom.

To do so would be to deny that God is almighty in the sense that He is able accomplish His purpose.

Not only that but it makes man the final arbiter of his own salvation and, thus, makes man sovereign over God.

In other words God has to concede the majority of humans to hell in order have enough to fill heaven. What rubbish!

God concedes nothing! That He chooses to save even one person is an act of the greatest mercy.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Chan

I don't agree that God must "work around" anything. His power and sovereignty are absolute..

Ok, God does not have to work around anything, but He does to bring about His purpose in man.

Originally Posted by chan

The Arminian view is that we are free to thwart God's purpose and that God will not interfere with that freedom.

Yes, that is the Arminian view, I was disagreeing with that view in my statment.

Originally Posted by chan

Not only that but it makes man the final arbiter of his own salvation and, thus, makes man sovereign over God.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by chan

God concedes nothing! That He chooses to save even one person is an act of the greatest mercy

So true.

[RevDWW]

Is anything really free?

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Chan

Being the Calvinist that I am, I don't believe in what is commonly understood to be "free will" but this thread isn't about the Calvinist view vs. the Arminian (or, more accurately, Pelagian) view. What I want to explore is this: Let's just say for the sake of argument that there is this thing called "free will." What does that mean?

I've had some of this discussion with a couple of the elders in my home church and they haven't been able to come up with an answer.

First of all, there is not one passage in the Bible that says humans have "free will." Instead, it is an INTERPRETATION of various passages that have been thrown together - passages saying such things as "choose you this day who you will serve" or "whosoever believeth." So, if anyone tries to say the Bible says man has free will, that person is bearing false witness against the word of God. But, let's just set that aside.

What does it mean for humans to have "free will"? To answer this, let's look at the first word in that phrase - the word "free." Americans associate the word "free" with the word "freedom" and, thus, have a cultural concept of liberty and of having certain rights. It follows logically that if someone has certain rights that he cannot be punished for exercising those rights, since punishment implies the person does not have the rights that he has exercised. If we say, for example, that a person has the right not to incriminate himself (part of the fifth amendment of the American Constitution) then the government has no authority to punish him for exercising that right. So, in the American sense, to be free implies having certain rights and a certain degree of individual sovereignty. But is this what is meant by "free will"?

When we say someone has "free will," are we saying - as in the American sense - that an individual has the RIGHT to exercise his will as he sees fit: that he has the RIGHT to choose or not choose? The way the term is commonly used, it sounds as if this is exactly what people mean - that we have the right to choose or not choose. Now, applying this to the Pelagian doctrine of free will, are we saying that God gives human beings the RIGHT to choose not to obey Him, to choose not to respond to the gospel call, etc.? Further, if we are saying humans have the RIGHT to choose or not choose, then on what basis does God have the right to punish humans for exercising a right that He supposedly gave them? If "free will" means the right to choose or not choose, if "free will" means humans have a certain degree of absolute sovereignty, then there is no basis for God to punish sin (transgression against the law of God) since "free will" in the American sense of being "free" implies having the right to exercise one's will as one chooses.

However, since God clearly does punish sin, and is perfectly righteous and just in doing so, this contradicts the notion of "free will" as it was discussed in the previous paragraph. So, how do we reconcile the seeming contradiction? We must say either that man does not have "free will" or that "free will" means something other than the right to choose or not choose. Could "free will" in this context mean merely having the capacity or ability to choose without necessarily having the right to choose? If we say, for example, that someone has the capacity or ability to rob a bank, that doesn't mean he has the right to rob a bank and, if caught, he will surely be punished for it. If what we're really talking about here is having the inherent capacity to choose or not choose the things of God, then is what we're talking about really free will or is it simply the state of having a will? Does having the capacity to choose mean that we also have the right to choose and, thus, that we have absolute sovereignty over our own lives? If so, then God has no right to punish humans for exercising that right. If not, then we really can't say the human will is "free."

Before you respond to this post, make sure you've read it carefully. THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT THE MERITS OF THE CALVINIST POSITION OR THE PELAGIAN POSITION ON FREE WILL! Also, do not confuse the capacity (or capability) to choose with the right to choose.

If you have to believe in God to be saved under any formula.

Then their is inherint free will.

He that believeth in God shall not perish.

That takes a choice to believe.

Like many things in scripture it does not take a harvard degreee to understand the meaning.
Without free will who would want to serve a God that would allow the following:

WW2 and killing of so many innocent Jews
Sept 11th

and many more.

It took the act of humans and their decision to commit these acts.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

If you have to believe in God to be saved under any formula.

Then their is inherint free will.

He that believeth in God shall not perish.

That takes a choice to believe.

Like many things in scripture it does not take a harvard degreee to understand the meaning.
Without free will who would want to serve a God that would allow the following:

WW2 and killing of so many innocent Jews
Sept 11th

and many more.

It took the act of humans and their decision to commit these acts.]

The horrible actions (WWII, 9-11) of men were not committed in a vacuum, the perpetrators were CAUSED to do the things they did by the context in which they were born and nurtured. Therefore to attribute their actions solely to freewill is inaccurate, in the context of their lives they had in essence no choice but to act as they did. The context of their lives was not decide by themselves, they had no choice in who they were, who their parents were, the time and place in history to which they were born. Their "freewill" was extremely narrow within the perimeters of their life context.

Ultimately is seems either God created the vast majority of human for destruction, or God is using the events and circumstances of our lives to bring about His ultimate intentions. And I believe that is the complete deliverance and redemption of all His creation.

Romans 8.20 "For the creation WAS SUBJECTED to futility, NOT WILLINGLY, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also WILL BE SET FREE FROM ITS SLAVERY TO CORRUPTION into the freedom of the glory of the children of God."

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

If you have to believe in God to be saved under any formula.

Then their is inherint free will.

He that believeth in God shall not perish.

That takes a choice to believe.

Like many things in scripture it does not take a harvard degreee to understand the meaning.
Without free will who would want to serve a God that would allow the following:

WW2 and killing of so many innocent Jews
Sept 11th

and many more.

It took the act of humans and their decision to commit these acts.

Go back and read the original post again. You appear to be confusing the right to choose with the capacity to choose. You also appear to be creating a false dichotomy in that you seem to be suggesting that "will" is synonymous with "free will" and that to not have "free will" means to have no will at all.

If there is the right to choose, there is no basis for God to punish sin. If what we're referring to is merely the capacity to choose, then God has a basis for punishing us for what we choose.

There's a difference between simply having will and having free will.