Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellion? - Page 2

Charnock · #11 09-24-2008, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charnock

Should every pastor and church be connected to a denomination?

Can there be true oversight without denominational affiliation?

Are independent churches operating in rebellion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Charnock, since you asked those questions, tell us...

What do YOU think?

I believe there is some good in denominational affiliation. Foremost being benefits like fellowship, accountability, tradition and ministerial presbytery. Denominations also pare down doctrinal ambiguity in the local assembly. The general population needs only look at a local church's denominational affiliation in order to discern what to expect when attending.

However, I believe there is just as much good in nondenominational assemblies. Autonomy does not necessarily imply lack of oversight. Many nondenominational churches have very strong accountability systems. The lack of an external presbytery can be a blessing as well. This frees the nondenominational church to be individualistic, unique and completely homogenous.

Abuse is possible whether a church is tied to a denomination or not, and often the denomination itself is abusive. Further, denominations can tax the local assembly into oblivion. I have seen this happen on many occasions within the United Methodist Church. Invariably local churches end up serving the bureaucracy of the denomination instead of the denomination serving the local church.

Tim Rutledge · #12 09-24-2008, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalkLady

NO

YES

NO

agreed.

Charnock · #13 09-25-2008, 12:12 AM

When speaking of the church, we refer to it in either the local or universal sense. From looking at the biblical record, we find that local churches were organized to be independent from each other (1 Peter 5:1-3), answering only to Jesus, the Head of the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). In passages where the universal church is under discussion (Ephesians 5:23-27), scripture is silent concerning any formal organization. The Lord’s church has been organized without earthly headquarters and bureaucracies. Jesus is the head of the church and elders in local congregations answer directly to Him.

http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-local...sing-error.htm

Charnock · #14 09-25-2008, 12:21 AM

God's Wisdom Shown In Local Autonomy

We can easily see the wisdom of God manifested in the autonomy of the local church. If all the congregations were joined by some sort of "inter-congregational alliance" or "organizational federation," the dangers of apostasy would be greatly increased. If one congregation in the "alliance" should turn to apostasy, there would be a distinct danger of every other congregation in the "alliance" becoming affected. Or if one group of elders were given the right to oversee many congregations, and they should go into apostasy, every congregation under their oversight would likely be led into the same apostasy. But when each congregation is an independent and autonomous body this is not true. One congregation or one group of elders may go into apostasy without affecting all of the others. Any congregation, of course, through false teaching, may be led into apostasy, but we should recognize and respect the greater degree of safety that is found in the autonomy and independence of the local church. God arranged it that way. Let us strive to keep it that way. Man's "brotherhood projects" are not an improvement upon the divine system of operation.

www.watchmanmag.com/0406/040603.htm

Charnock · #15 09-25-2008, 12:32 AM

The autonomy of every local Christian Church is a clear and vital principle of Scripture. Unfortunately, it is a truth which seems to be now widely ignored with much damage resulting.

In the earliest days of Christianity there were a few specially chosen men who were given certain "apostolic authority" by the Lord. They served the Lord before the New Testament was given. As they passed on, they left behind a body of inspired truth called "the apostle's doctrine." A part of which is a clear mandate for local church autonomy. It was made clear that there is to be no level of human authority between the Lord and the local church elders.

Anywhere, or if by any means, human authority is superimposed upon the government of the local church, or used in such a manner as to provide a humanly co-ordinated government between local churches, this principle is violated. Whether the transgression is on a national or international scale it makes no difference. Or, in a more subtle way, if "circles of fellowship" or inter-church ties are cultivated and enforced by influential leaders, the error and resulting damage is disastrously the same. A sect is formed. There is a division of Christian testimony and a rallying around certain ideals or concepts other than the Word of God allows.

Nowhere is it taught in Scripture that all Christian churches are to be uniform. They are all under the same Divine headship. They are all to conform to the same perfect Word. Beyond that they express local individuality and are answerable only to the Lord Himself.

The early churches in Caesarea, Ephesus, Corinth and Rome, for example were clearly different. Each had a distinct character fashioned no doubt by its ethnic composition, local conditions and customs etc. in terms of those differences no one of them was more "right" then the others. There was no commandment that they should all meet in the same sort of building, be known by the same human name, dress in a certain fashion or have a certain seating arrangement. Such matters, and many more, were left to the discretion and wisdom of the local elders.

Sectarianism comes from human presumption and results in human pride. It is born when some believers conclude that they should separate themselves from some of the Lord's people over some issue upon which the Scriptures give no direction. Having therefore committed the prior sin of the Corinthians - creating divisions - they proceed naturally to the same succession of errors as plagued that early church. The carnality that accompanies division (I Cor. 3:1-7); the pride of being different from others (4:7); being puffed up with sectarian ideology instead of mourning over unjudged sin (ch. 5). This leads inevitably to internal strife (ch. 6) until the whole system winds up as a house divided against itself. The original sin of division when unjudged, perpetuates itself into more strife, more bickering, still more divisions and of course, more trouble.

It is no wonder that the saddest examples of ecclesiastical weakness are found today amongst those who most prided themselves in the notion that by this kind of division they would gain greater heights of spirituality. It is surely time to deal courageously with this basic error and condemn it wherever we find it and to return to follow the simple principles of New Testament church autonomy.

Christ the only Head. (Eph. 1:20-23, 5:23). He is the Owner, the Master and Director of each and every component of the Christian church. His Word is the only Oracle that speaks with divine authority throughout the Church. The Word of God reveals no other authority within the Church that applies to more than a single local church.

If a certain thing is done or a given issue is resolved a certain way in one church, that is not reason itself to apply the same decisions in another local church, unless there is a clear scriptural mandate touching on that matter.

Christ is the only inter-church link. Note carefully Rev. ch. 1. There the Lord is seen moving in the midst of the lampstands. Those seven lampstands bore no formal relationship to one another except through Him. Here is a lesson we need to learn afresh. Between the churches there is found no horizontal (human) linkage. Their relationship with each other was only via the vertical linkage that binds each to the One who is in their midst.

This clarifies the Biblical distinction between division and separation. Separation is that good and scriptural practice which sets apart all the Lord's people to Himself. Division is the sinful practice that challenges His Lordship amongst His own and seeks to disrupt their fellowship with one another through Him by introducing fragile horizontal relationships.

personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/familiaknott/Autonomy.htm

ManOfWord · #16 09-25-2008, 07:59 AM

Well, we're independent for a couple of reasons. #1 being that we can have more of an influence on our community being independent than we can in a denomination. #2 I have not found a group that justifies me paying the monthly dues!

Withdrawn · #17 09-25-2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

#1 being that we can have more of an influence on our community being independent than we can in a denomination.

Hey, Bro, would you please elaborate on this for me? I'm not rebuking or refuting, I'm sincerely curious how you support that statement. I've heard that it's harder to get tax-exempt status without an affiliation and even harder to get a bank loan should we ever decide we should purchase a building.

My brother-in-law and I are talking and praying about this as an option. Seems there's another pastor in our area bad-mouthing us because we have, evidently, stolen some of "his people." While we have never specifically asked any of them to come with us, we have not told them they are not welcome either. Some of the politicians in our district are stirring up trouble and it's making it difficult to even attend fellowship meetings. He's paying monthly dues to basically receive no support from the presbytery.

Jack Shephard · #18 09-25-2008, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalkLady

NO

YES

NO

DITTO!!!

I think Indies are far greater in some areas of ministry than ones tied to a movement. The Indies can choose to do something with the church boards approval and they only answer to themselves.

Carpenter · #19 09-25-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charnock

Should every pastor and church be connected to a denomination?

Can there be true oversight without denominational affiliation?

Are independent churches operating in rebellion?

It has been preached for years and independent churches (or the concept) has been condemned, because they refuse to come under any sort of accountable leadership...which you know in the UPC when you refuse to come under leadership you are instantly considered rebellious.

This notion reflected on two large churches in our city one UPC and one independent (Apostolic) that were like the Apostolic version of the Hattfields and McCoys....but not so much anymore as one of the pastors retired.

Every time saints came to the UPC from that church they were coming out of the wilderness and deadness and from darkness into the light, and when they left the UPC to go to the independent, those saints were rebellious and full of bitterness...and oh yea, were unwilling to bow to leadership.

ManOfWord · #20 09-25-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaamez

Hey, Bro, would you please elaborate on this for me? I'm not rebuking or refuting, I'm sincerely curious how you support that statement. I've heard that it's harder to get tax-exempt status without an affiliation and even harder to get a bank loan should we ever decide we should purchase a building.

My brother-in-law and I are talking and praying about this as an option. Seems there's another pastor in our area bad-mouthing us because we have, evidently, stolen some of "his people." While we have never specifically asked any of them to come with us, we have not told them they are not welcome either. Some of the politicians in our district are stirring up trouble and it's making it difficult to even attend fellowship meetings. He's paying monthly dues to basically receive no support from the presbytery.

Tax exempt is not a problem. You pretty much have it from day one, as long as it is a "normal" church situation but you still need to file with the IRS....usually just a formality.

Regarding bank loans, we've had no problem whatsoever. We've just demonstrated ability to pay. We just borrowed $150K a couple of years ago to do some things around here and hire a youth pastor. Our equity was there and we provided the bank with a business plan and it was no problem.

Regarding ordinations: Even though we are independent, in the State's eyes, we are our own "denominational" ordaining body. I can ordain anyone and it is just like any other denomination.

Regarding accountability: There is always the danger of abuse and that exists whether in a denomination or not. The key is to have good leaders on board and a good accountability system, which we have. I have a lot of authority, but it comes from trust. We still have things in place like signing a loan or selling that can't be done by be alone. It takes a board decision or maybe a congregational decision, depending on what the situation is.

Impact on our community? Being independent/non-denominational allows me to interact with MANY other churches since they can't pigeon hole us with a denomination. Interaction translates into influence. It also helps me in the political and business community as well. That may not be the case everywhere, but it is for us.

Hope this helps!