California ban on same-sex marriage struck down

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

First of all, California did not strike this down based on the US Constitution, but on the California Constitution.

True, but this will go to the Supreme Court one day. So previous rulings are something to consider if you want a sense of what the SCOTUS might rule.

Your analogy being a religious one obviously crosses up with the First Amendment.

First Amendment or not, the logic was exemplified and even practiced under the Holy Roman Empire.

The problem that you fail to see is they already had the right to a civil union in CA, the term marriage was reserved for unions between people of the opposite sex.

I fail, you fail, she fails, he fails. Bro…I don’t “fail” to see. The issue between civil unions and all out marriage is similar to the “separate but not equal” issues we had decades ago. They don’t want to have a separate institution. They want to be “married”. The question becomes does the state have the right to mandate who we can or cannot marry? I don’t like it…but I think it’s obvious that in a free country like America the courts are going to rule in favor of individual liberties as opposed to restricting individual liberties.

This is an attempt to force other states that have DOMA to be forced into accepting same-sex marriages through full faith and credit.

The states will accept it anyway…besides, they already accept what they like. For me I’m only really concerned if they try to force religious bodies to modify our morals and/or practices. On a moral note…states recognize the remarriage of people who divorced through “no fault” divorce all the time. Biblically this is state sanctioned adultery…yet nobody says a thing.

YES!!! The state does have the right to restrict who you marry…

They have age restrictions.
You can't marry your kids, grandparents, cousins, etc.
You can't marry if you are already married.

I understand that. But these people will argue that they’re free citizens who are of age, unrelated, and unmarried.

I don’t know…I can’t control them and don’t care to waste the emotional energy trying. I can only preach and teach what the Bible says. God only recognizes the marriage between a man and a woman, regardless of what the state may say. In addition God only allows for divorce and remarriage in the event of adultery.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

CH - I don't have time to address your mistaken history of marriage in the United States tonight, but maybe this weekend I can help dispose you of those revisionist notions.

Please do. I'll see if my Lexis ID still works. LOL

[DividedThigh]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

CH - I don't have time to address your mistaken history of marriage in the United States tonight, but maybe this weekend I can help dispose you of those revisionist notions.

good luck baron, it is like talking to my 22 yr old son, he knows all, and we dont know nothing, till he needs something, bless you brother, my dad used to say it is like a preacher who preaches the word with no prayer, empty words, dt

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by DividedThigh

good luck baron, it is like talking to my 22 yr old son, he knows all, and we dont know nothing, till he needs something, bless you brother, my dad used to say it is like a preacher who preaches the word with no prayer, empty words, dt

You'd say this about a brother who simply questions your political opinion. Jeesh bro.

I'm just being realistic. I don't see keeping these people and churches restricted from this too much longer. I'm not for it. I just don't see this as being something we can really address politically without a Marriage Amendment in the Constitution of every state or the United States Constitution. To make matters more complicated no one running for President would support such an amendment right now and the American people don't show much support for it either.

I think the only answer is preaching the gospel. No court, judge, or politician can hinder that. Politics can't address sin unless it endangers life, liberty, or property. And then there are stablished limits in those areas.

And I feel that we allow these things to disturb our peace. We'll never be able to control everyone. So I often pray....

The Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pat-hway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

--Reinhold Niebuhr

[ChristopherHall]

The Republicans just want to use what we believe about abortion and gay marriage to get us to give them more money so they can do their best to keep power and protecting the interests of the corporate elite.

I just don't trust or believe them any more.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

The Republicans just want to use what we believe about abortion and gay marriage to get us to give them more money so they can do their best to keep power and protecting the interests of the corporate elite.

I just don't trust or believe them any more.

Because Democrats who tell you they will kill they babies are so much better. Oh, wait they just give womean a "choice" they don't kill anyone.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Because Democrats who tell you they will kill they babies are so much better. Oh, wait they just give womean a "choice" they don't kill anyone.

I come from a pretty Democratic extended family. None of my relatives has ever had an abortion. None of my relatives has ever indicated that they would have an abortion. In fact most in my family, though they are Democrats, believe that life is sacred and that women should choose life. They break with Republicans because at the end of the day they believe that the government isn’t qualified to essentially seize a woman’s body and force her to give birth, so they feel “choice” is the best policy. Everyone of my relatives support measures to reduce the abortion rate by relieving women caught in poverty, abuse, and in the need of health insurance. Since I know these people and love these people I find it VERY insulting and small minded to claim that Democrats “kill babies”.

Let’s compare this to gun rights. Do gun companies kill people? Does the NRA kill people? Should we blame the RNC, IRA, or gun companies for the deaths of those killed by guns? No. People kill people. You can support the right to own a gun and not support using that weapon irresponsibly. Same with abortion, many Democrats support the idea that abortion should be strictly a woman’s choice…but they don’t support the idea of using that choice irresponsibly. For example I believe that abortion is ALWAYS wrong, even if a woman’s life is in danger. I personally believe that the woman should trust God and that she’s unjustified to kill a baby to merely to preserve her own life. A Godly woman will die before killing her baby. But while I believe that, I’d never advocate that the government should force women to have their babies even if their lives are in danger; that choice should belong to the woman after counsel from her husband, family, and pastor.

I saw a pastor “wimp out” while preaching about Christian worldview. He spent half his sermon blasting liberal worldviews and assailing on the sanctity of life. It really was a very passionate and powerful sermon that brought strong conviction. He called the political liberals of our nation “murderers” who will face the “wrath of God”. BUT he then he stopped and said, “I want to stop here. I want to tell any woman in this sanctuary who may have had an abortion that, in this place, you can have that sin forgiven and God can make all things new.” Um….hello?! If you or I had just mercilessly chose to KILL our children I highly doubt that pastor would soft peddle the issue! Here’s the deal, many women pay tithes. He’ll call political liberals murderers who deserve the wrath of God…but then pet and coddle a woman who may have chosen to MURDER her unborn child and suck it down a drain! I was disgusted!

Women who choose abortion are far more abominable in God’s eyes than any politician. I don’t believe women who have procured an abortion should serve in church leadership positions. I wouldn’t support ordaining a man who was divorced nor would I support granting a license to any woman who had procured an abortion. Here’s the issue I have with political “Christian Conservatives”…our love of life is too often restricted to the POLITICAL SPHERE and we’re too wimpy and limp wristed to enforce our life ethics IN THE CHURCH. I’ll be honest, I’m not even sure if a woman who has procured an abortion can be saved. Jesus said,

Matthew 18:1-6
{18:1} At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus,
saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
{18:2} And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him
in the midst of them, {18:3} And said, Verily I say unto
you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children,
ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. {18:4}
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little
child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. {18:5}
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name
receiveth me. {18:6} But whoso shall offend one of these
little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a
millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were
drowned in the depth of the sea.

Friend, that makes abortion sound like a pretty SERIOUS sin. Even if a woman can receive forgiveness after an abortion I’m confident that she shouldn’t be permitted to serve in leadership nor should she ever be licensed. She’s a murderer. And I believe that though she might go to Heaven she will face STRONG judgment and rebuke before the Judgment Seat of Christ…. and she may even loose a significant measure of her eternal reward.

I once had a woman talk to me about her abortion. I was sickened. She cried and I prayed with her. But friend, I told her point blank that she has blood on her hands and that even if God forgives her she will face unbelievable sorrow for the sin she had committed.

Now tell me…would you agree with this? Or would you “soft ball” and wimp out with a woman who committed this sin and only use this as some cheap political ploy like most Republicans?!

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I come from a pretty Democratic extended family. None of my relatives has ever had an abortion. None of my relatives has ever indicated that they would have an abortion. In fact most in my family, though they are Democrats, believe that life is sacred and that women should choose life. They break with Republicans because at the end of the day they believe that the government isn’t qualified to essentially seize a woman’s body and force her to give birth, so they feel “choice” is the best policy. Everyone of my relatives support measures to reduce the abortion rate by relieving women caught in poverty, abuse, and in the need of health insurance. Since I know these people and love these people I find it VERY insulting and small minded to claim that Democrats “kill babies”.

You call abortion murder and apparently see no place for a woman to be forgiven for having one yet you say that the government isn't qualified to force a woman to give birth. This doesn't even make sense. If that is your position than murder of any kind is beyond the governments qualifications to punish or prevent.

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I saw a pastor “wimp out” while preaching about Christian worldview. He spent half his sermon blasting liberal worldviews and assailing on the sanctity of life. It really was a very passionate and powerful sermon that brought strong conviction. He called the political liberals of our nation “murderers” who will face the “wrath of God”. BUT he then he stopped and said, “I want to stop here. I want to tell any woman in this sanctuary who may have had an abortion that, in this place, you can have that sin forgiven and God can make all things new.” Um….hello?! If you or I had just mercilessly chose to KILL our children I highly doubt that pastor would soft peddle the issue! Here’s the deal, many women pay tithes. He’ll call political liberals murderers who deserve the wrath of God…but then pet and coddle a woman who may have chosen to MURDER her unborn child and suck it down a drain! I was disgusted!

Women who choose abortion are far more abominable in God’s eyes than any politician.

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I don’t believe women who have procured an abortion should serve in church leadership positions.

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I wouldn’t support ordaining a man who was divorced nor would I support granting a license to any woman who had procured an abortion. Here’s the issue I have with political “Christian Conservatives”…our love of life is too often restricted to the POLITICAL SPHERE and we’re too wimpy and limp wristed to enforce our life ethics IN THE CHURCH. I’ll be honest, I’m not even sure if a woman who has procured an abortion can be saved.?!

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Now tell me…would you agree with this? Or would you “soft ball” and wimp out with a woman who committed this sin and only use this as some cheap political ploy like most Republicans?!

What I find disgusting is this no mercy point of view. I guess the fact that Paul was complicit in the murder of Stephen hade him unfit to minister too? I do believe a woman can choose to terminate her pregnancy to preserve her own life. There are times this is necessary or both will die. I wouldn't let my wife and kid die in a fire simply because I could only save one. Sometime we do have to make choices about life and death.

What a weak god you must serve that he cannot forgive sins.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

What I find disgusting is this no mercy point of view. I guess the fact that Paul was complicit in the murder of Stephen hade him unfit to minister too?

Rubbish. I do believe that even Paul faced a measure of great guilt for his murderous sin against the Church. In addition I do believe that Paul will face a measure of answering for his sins in eternity, just as we all will, though he didn’t loose his soul. Yes Paul was used of God. He largely evangelized. I don’t see Paul ever “pastoring” a church. Also abortion is far more heinous than anything Paul had ever done. A sin against a child is greater in moral implication than a sin against an adult. Jesus clearly indicated this with the parable of the millstone.
I do believe in mercy…but I don’t believe in greeaaasy grace. Some of you guys make it sound like all a murderous woman needs to do to be clean from the sin of abortion is vote Republican. Friend, she’s going to bare the guilt of her sin even after God has saved her soul. It’s a spiritual sowing and reaping. I’ve often told women that if they ever chose abortion they would forever regret it…even after God forgave them. This is an unconscionable sin before the throne of God.
My point is that we are using this issue as a political ploy and NOT preaching the spiritual and moral dimensions of it for the individual women who make this choice.

I do believe a woman can choose to terminate her pregnancy to preserve her own life. There are times this is necessary or both will die. I wouldn't let my wife and kid die in a fire simply because I could only save one. Sometime we do have to make choices about life and death.

Suddenly you’re pro-choice. What gives? When my wife was having Noah we talked long and hard about this…she couldn’t imagine living after killing her own baby to preserve her own life. I couldn’t imagine telling her that it would be ok to kill a baby to save her life. But…I did ultimately express to her that the choice is hers and I will love her and pray with her if she is faced with that choice.
We’re talking moral right and wrong in spite of legality. First, I think it demonstrates a weakness of faith and lack of trust in God. Second, I think it’s an issue to be settled by individual women.
But this underscores how complex this issue is. I don’t believe abortion is ever morally right. Though I don’t believe it should be banned or restricted in every sense. The choice to commit such an act is best left in the hands of individual women such as your wife and my wife.
Now, back to what provoked this thought….
You insinuated that Democrats are baby killers.
This illustrates something…we’d berate and insult anyone who dares to feel it best to vote Democratic, calling the Democrats “baby killers” and such…but then we go gooey and talk mercy, mercy, mercy, toward the very women who have chosen to have an abortion. I can have much sympathy for a woman who chose an abortion to save her life…even though I still feel it was a moral wrong. But I have a hard time having sympathy for a woman who abused her right to choose by having an elective abortion for birth control purposes.
Why does the sanctity of life only matter in the voting booth? Why doesn’t it matter when dealing with the murderers who actually choose abortion? Could it be because we’re too weak kneed to confront potential tithers with the truth about their sin?
I don’t know why abortion matters more in our politics than it does in our pews. That’s one reason why I think that many Republicans only want to use the issue to get votes….they really don’t value life. Not to mention that once elected the Republicans do virtually NOTHING about it.
So if a Democrat will address poverty and the issues that cause women to choose abortion to reduce the abortion rate, why not support them? Both Democratic candidates voiced the need to reduce the abortion rate in our nation. Belgium has the lowest abortion rate in the world…yet abortion is legal in Belgium. Republicans only offer to make abortion illegal…they don’t care a bit about the abortion rate itself. Only Democrats have a plan to reduce abortion like they have in Belgium. Of course since their policies are not steeped in pro-life and religious language most have no idea about these policies. For example the “95-10 Initiative”, it’s a DEMOCRATIC initiative to reduce the abortion America’s rate 95% in 10 years…but virtually no Pro-Life Republican voter has even heard of it. In fact, Republicans in Congress have resisted the various efforts to pass elements of this legislation.
If abortion is murder in the voting both…it’s murder in the pews.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Rubbish. I do believe that even Paul faced a measure of great guilt for his murderous sin against the Church. In addition I do believe that Paul will face a measure of answering for his sins in eternity, just as we all will, though he didn’t loose his soul. Yes Paul was used of God. He largely evangelized. I don’t see Paul ever “pastoring” a church. Also abortion is far more heinous than anything Paul had ever done. A sin against a child is greater in moral implication than a sin against an adult. Jesus clearly indicated this with the parable of the millstone.
I do believe in mercy…but I don’t believe in greeaaasy grace. Some of you guys make it sound like all a murderous woman needs to do to be clean from the sin of abortion is vote Republican. Friend, she’s going to bare the guilt of her sin even after God has saved her soul. It’s a spiritual sowing and reaping. I’ve often told women that if they ever chose abortion they would forever regret it…even after God forgave them. This is an unconscionable sin before the throne of God.
My point is that we are using this issue as a political ploy and NOT preaching the spiritual and moral dimensions of it for the individual women who make this choice.

You know nothing about forgiveness. The fact that people regret their past mistakes has nothing to do with God punishing them after they have repented. So Paul the church planter never pastored?