Unity of the Faith

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Joelel

Eph.4:11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12: For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
14: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

Only the perfect man will be in unity with each other.The perfect will have the same knowledge and speak the same truth,no division.

Based on this analysis there are no mature/perfect Christians. Look at any denominations (including all the Apostolic ones), even those in the ranks of authority differ on various points. When you break it down to the local assemblies they differ greatly.

Acts 15:2
2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, {the brethren} determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. (NAS)

Even the founding Apostles and Prophets disagreed on subjects.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Based on this analysis there are no mature/perfect Christians. Look at any denominations (including all the Apostolic ones), even those in the ranks of authority differ on various points. When you break it down to the local assemblies they differ greatly.

Acts 15:2
2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, {the brethren} determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. (NAS)

Even the founding Apostles and Prophets disagreed on subjects.

We are comming to,Some may become perfect but I think most will not.Some will be guests and not the bride at the marrage.13: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

We know there is much division and the division will always be amoung some because og not having knowledge or because of sin,sin blinds people to where they can't receive or understand truth.

Rom.16
[17] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.[18] For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.



1Cor.1
[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Cor.3
[3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


1Cor.11
[18] For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

[nbass]

There are two "unity" chapters in the Bible. In the Old Testament, Nehemiah 3 shows unity in action. I call this the "next unto him" chapter.

In the New Testament, the unity chapter is Ephesians 4. There are two types of unity between believers mentioned here. Unity of the Spirit and unity of the faith. I believe the two are often confused.

Unity of the Spirit is a unity the Ephesians are encouraged to "keep," indicating it was possessed when Paul wrote the epistle. This is the unity we have with other believers when we are born of water and the Spirit.

Unity of the faith is a future thing. "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Eph 4:13). Sorry folks, this has not happened yet. Until we are perfect we will have to settle for the unity of the Spirit and look forward to unity of the faith.

This means that there will always be things about the faith that the most sincere and godly believers among us will disagree about. A mature Christian can accept this. Jesus will sort it out later. Some may ask, can two walk together except they agree? Best I can tell, there are only two things we have to agree on to walk together. We have to agree what a walk is and we have to agree to do it together. We have to agree what salvation is and we have to agree to enjoy it together.

I have a chapter in my book about the power of unity. Two subtitles in that chapter are "What Unity is Not" and "What Unity Is." I hope you will forgive the shameless plug but I have written in depth on this topic. The title of my book is Building God's Wall: Reclaiming Your Spiritual High Ground. It is a study on the topic of spiritual renewal from the Book of Nehemiah.

I hope this pushes the discussion along.

[Michael The Disciple]

How pitiful to see that Apostolics do not even believe Gods word on this matter.

10: Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Cor. 1:10

Doctrine is important. If all believe different doctrine that is division. To teach otherwise is to corrupt the truth.

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

How pitiful to see that Apostolics do not even believe Gods word on this matter.

10: Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Cor. 1:10

Doctrine is important. If all believe different doctrine that is division. To teach otherwise is to corrupt the truth.

I agree on the importance of doctrine.
You said, "IF all believe different doctrine that is division". I emphasized the word "IF" because the fact is, we DO believe different doctrines. Among Apostolic Christians, there is a wide spectrum of doctinal views on virtually every subject. If unity is to be based on what we believe, then there will never be unity among God's people. As we have seen right here on this forum, brethren divide, refused to walk together, because of minor differences in doctrinal interpretation. Now, you and I most likely will not agree on every point of doctrine. I don't know... we've never, to my knowledge, had any discussions regarding doctrine. But, if we both are filled with the Holy Ghost, then we should be in spiritual unity. "... the unity of the Spirit...". Paul also mentions "...in the bond of peace". While we may not agree on everything doctrinal, the Spirit of God brings us into spiriitual unity.

No, unity isn't based on WHAT we believe...but rather on WHO we believe. Spirit filled believers do believe Gods Word on that subject of unity, but, sadly, they've been "conditioned" to belive that unity is non-existent- that it is something we should strive for, but will never be able to quite attain it. Organizations have sprouted like grabgrass over the years to bring unity, but, divsion, and separation have been the results. We are farther from unity than we have ever been, because UNITY doesn't come through human effort. Doctrinal statements, articles of faith, manuals, affirmation statements, resolutions have achieved exactly NOTHING but dividing people. The Holy Ghost brought unity to the early church. And if we are to be a truly UNITED people, it will be through the Holy Ghost, and not by human intervention.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

I agree on the importance of doctrine.
You said, "IF all believe different doctrine that is division". I emphasized the word "IF" because the fact is, we DO believe different doctrines. Among Apostolic Christians, there is a wide spectrum of doctinal views on virtually every subject. If unity is to be based on what we believe, then there will never be unity among God's people. As we have seen right here on this forum, brethren divide, refused to walk together, because of minor differences in doctrinal interpretation. Now, you and I most likely will not agree on every point of doctrine. I don't know... we've never, to my knowledge, had any discussions regarding doctrine. But, if we both are filled with the Holy Ghost, then we should be in spiritual unity. "... the unity of the Spirit...". Paul also mentions "...in the bond of peace". While we may not agree on everything doctrinal, the Spirit of God brings us into spiriitual unity.

No, unity isn't based on WHAT we believe...but rather on WHO we believe. Spirit filled believers do believe Gods Word on that subject of unity, but, sadly, they've been "conditioned" to belive that unity is non-existent- that it is something we should strive for, but will never be able to quite attain it. Organizations have sprouted like grabgrass over the years to bring unity, but, divsion, and separation have been the results. We are farther from unity than we have ever been, because UNITY doesn't come through human effort. Doctrinal statements, articles of faith, manuals, affirmation statements, resolutions have achieved exactly NOTHING but dividing people. The Holy Ghost brought unity to the early church. And if we are to be a truly UNITED people, it will be through the Holy Ghost, and not by human intervention.

Problem is what you are saying does not at all sound like "perfectly joined together in the same mind and the same judgment". Its true on different things we do not agree. But is that right?

Let us not accept less than Jesus wants. Do you think its ok with HIM for all of us to speak different things about him?

Also consider if the unity of the faith is based on Jesus APART FROM DOCTRINE then we should be fine with Trins. Also the JW'S and the Catholics and Mormons. They all believe in Jesus.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Joelel

We are comming to,Some may become perfect but I think most will not.Some will be guests and not the bride at the marrage.13: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

We know there is much division and the division will always be amoung some because og not having knowledge or because of sin,sin blinds people to where they can't receive or understand truth.

Rom.16
[17] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.[18] For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.



1Cor.1
[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Cor.3
[3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


1Cor.11
[18] For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

Can you elaborate on the bolded statement about some being guests at the marriage supper, and some being the bride?

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

How pitiful to see that Apostolics do not even believe Gods word on this matter.

10: Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Cor. 1:10

Doctrine is important. If all believe different doctrine that is division. To teach otherwise is to corrupt the truth.

You are accurate in stating that "doctrine is important" but you are incorrect in thinking that there is only one stream of doctrine. There are many doctrinal discussions in these threads and many times there is disagreement with the interpretation and usage of the scripture. To think that only one person is right would be foolish.

Faith is a doctrine, but there are levels of faith. Some may teach to have faith that God will use a doctor to bring about healing and another will teach to allow God to be the doctor. Is either wrong? No! It is a level of faith in the Word issue.

The scripture that you use does not promote the aspect that there are not varying opinions and interpretations, but that a body of believers walk and speak the same thing. It was written to the Corinthians and was an exhortation that they "stay on the same page." Paul explains himself in the next few verses:

1 Cor 1:10-13
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

This unity issue can bleed over into many areas of the local body of believers. Our church is a foreign mission oriented church, your church may be a very community mission oriented church. Those in our church should walk in agreement to our purpose and those of your house should walk in agreement of your purpose. In that, we should not speak against you for not participating in foreign missions nor should you condemn us for not doing more community work.

So I guess on an overall basis I disagree with your post.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by nbass

There are two "unity" chapters in the Bible. In the Old Testament, Nehemiah 3 shows unity in action. I call this the "next unto him" chapter.

In the New Testament, the unity chapter is Ephesians 4. There are two types of unity between believers mentioned here. Unity of the Spirit and unity of the faith. I believe the two are often confused.

Unity of the Spirit is a unity the Ephesians are encouraged to "keep," indicating it was possessed when Paul wrote the epistle. This is the unity we have with other believers when we are born of water and the Spirit.

Unity of the faith is a future thing. "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Eph 4:13). Sorry folks, this has not happened yet. Until we are perfect we will have to settle for the unity of the Spirit and look forward to unity of the faith.

This means that there will always be things about the faith that the most sincere and godly believers among us will disagree about. A mature Christian can accept this. Jesus will sort it out later. Some may ask, can two walk together except they agree? Best I can tell, there are only two things we have to agree on to walk together. We have to agree what a walk is and we have to agree to do it together. We have to agree what salvation is and we have to agree to enjoy it together.

I have a chapter in my book about the power of unity. Two subtitles in that chapter are "What Unity is Not" and "What Unity Is." I hope you will forgive the shameless plug but I have written in depth on this topic. The title of my book is Building God's Wall: Reclaiming Your Spiritual High Ground. It is a study on the topic of spiritual renewal from the Book of Nehemiah.

I hope this pushes the discussion along.

Interesting post, I have not looked at it in that way before. You've challenged me to some study

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

I agree on the importance of doctrine.
You said, "IF all believe different doctrine that is division". I emphasized the word "IF" because the fact is, we DO believe different doctrines. Among Apostolic Christians, there is a wide spectrum of doctinal views on virtually every subject. If unity is to be based on what we believe, then there will never be unity among God's people. As we have seen right here on this forum, brethren divide, refused to walk together, because of minor differences in doctrinal interpretation. Now, you and I most likely will not agree on every point of doctrine. I don't know... we've never, to my knowledge, had any discussions regarding doctrine. But, if we both are filled with the Holy Ghost, then we should be in spiritual unity. "... the unity of the Spirit...". Paul also mentions "...in the bond of peace". While we may not agree on everything doctrinal, the Spirit of God brings us into spiriitual unity.

No, unity isn't based on WHAT we believe...but rather on WHO we believe. Spirit filled believers do believe Gods Word on that subject of unity, but, sadly, they've been "conditioned" to belive that unity is non-existent- that it is something we should strive for, but will never be able to quite attain it. Organizations have sprouted like grabgrass over the years to bring unity, but, divsion, and separation have been the results. We are farther from unity than we have ever been, because UNITY doesn't come through human effort. Doctrinal statements, articles of faith, manuals, affirmation statements, resolutions have achieved exactly NOTHING but dividing people. The Holy Ghost brought unity to the early church. And if we are to be a truly UNITED people, it will be through the Holy Ghost, and not by human intervention.

Well said