Since the heart is only known by God, how can we be SURE?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I think any traumatic experience whether it comes from a male or female, is going to skew anyone's view of God. People are the only thing we have to judge relationship with.

True, but our relationship with our Earthly father has more potential to affect our relationship with our Heavenly Father than other relationships would.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Rico

If one has a willingness in his heart to forgive then bitterness does not necessarily take over in all cases, regardless of whether we forgive or not before asked to.

I agree with you Rico. However, I do know what they are saying about it turning to bitterness too.

I have seen people that will not forgive themselves and they are some of the most unhappy people in the world. Sometimes to forgive others, you have to forgive yourself first!

[Rico]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Not really, because I'm just thinking outloud as the thread progresses, but I'll give it a shot.

Here's the scripture:

3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

Those are some common issues for non-Christians and Christians alike. In a perfect world a true Christian full of God's spirit wouldn't wrestle with any of the above, however - - it's not a perfect world. I know Christians that walk the walk and talk the talk, YET they are involved in one of those above - - - so, do we judge them and say, oh, man you talk foolish talk or you are greedy, so to enter the kingdom of heaven, I need to separate myself from you.

I think we all would like to think that people that deal with this are just non-Christians or unrepented people, but what saddens me is I'm afraid we sit in church with people dealing with this stuff every Sunday.

I see where you are coming from. The Bible instructs us on what is the perfect way (or ideal), but what we experience can sometimes seem to contradict what the Word says.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Not really, because I'm just thinking outloud as the thread progresses, but I'll give it a shot.

Here's the scripture:

3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

Those are some common issues for non-Christians and Christians alike. In a perfect world a true Christian full of God's spirit wouldn't wrestle with any of the above, however - - it's not a perfect world. I know Christians that walk the walk and talk the talk, YET they are involved in one of those above - - - so, do we judge them and say, oh, man you talk foolish talk or you are greedy, so to enter the kingdom of heaven, I need to separate myself from you.

I think we all would like to think that people that deal with this are just non-Christians or unrepented people, but what saddens me is I'm afraid we sit in church with people dealing with this stuff every Sunday.

The part that stood out to me was, "Let no one deceive you with empty words..."

So actually, it goes back to what you were talking about - trust. You can forgive, but the trust factor must be rebuilt. That takes time and willingness on the part of the offended. Going further, you can be totally willing, but you must be wise to not be deceived. It just takes some pain and some time.

I'm sure you have to take that on an individual basis.

I remember my older sister used to lie so much during her High School years. I can't remember much about that now, but I remember that you couldn't believe her and it took years for anyone to trust her again.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Rico

I see where you are coming from. The Bible instructs us on what is the perfect way (or ideal), but what we experience can sometimes seem to contradict what the Word says.

Exactly!

So, if we separate ourselves from these things, we might be sitting on the front row by ourselves and then become self-righteous!!!

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

The part that stood out to me was, "Let no one deceive you with empty words..."

So actually, it goes back to what you were talking about - trust. You can forgive, but the trust factor must be rebuilt. That takes time and willingness on the part of the offended. Going further, you can be totally willing, but you must be wise to not be deceived. It just takes some pain and some time.

I'm sure you have to take that on an individual basis.

I remember my older sister used to lie so much during her High School years. I can't remember much about that now, but I remember that you couldn't believe her and it took years for anyone to trust her again.

Yes, just like HO explained about her father. His words are empty to her and there's no trust, so to every find any forgiveness or trust with him he will have to keep his word a few times to get her attention.

There's a lot of different paths we're taking in this thread, but it's really been enjoyable to me.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I'm not sure what you are saying, but the scripture is instructing forgiveness by saying - "shall be in danger". It's a warning and shows the extent someone will go with unforgiveness in their heart. It doesn't mention forgiveness, but it stands to reason it is or needs to be present with that kind of attitude.


But by going to the "offendee" you are opening up the heart of the "offendee" to see a better way. It is a process of forgiveness. Some people must be taught by example. So, I believe the scripture is reaching for the "offendee", because he cannot help himself.


Here again, we are reaching for the "offendee" by going the extra mile to pull him out of his state of mind.

I don't believe any of the scripture you posted are overlooking the "offendee", but reaching for him.



Again, I believe the instructions are clear - reach for the lost. Show them a more excellent way.

I understand where you are coming from and can see the principles you are gleaning from the text. I, on the other hand, am, for the purpose of deciding if we are required to forgive before asked, seeing the text from an instructional standpoint and do not see where we are being instructed to forgive before being asked to by the offender.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Oh, I agree - - time will tell and as we've said to trust again will require time and consistency to rebuild the trust. I'm not afraid to trust at all, but just wise enough to not blindly trust because I've forgiven.

Once bitten, twice shy.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Renda......

I can believe that you're not the kind of temperament or personality to be "bitter". I don't see that in you at all.

I've been harmed and hurt by people that I least expected it from. It grieves me to this day and still at times I break down when I think about some of the grievous things that happened and that happen to us all during a lifetime of events and experiences.

Yet, I would be willing to trust many of those people again. Foolish? Maybe. But I don't think so because at heart most of those people were good people.

I think you would be able to too if TRUE LOVE once again made itself evident and there are ways that that can happen.

Not saying it will or even needs to in regard to the situation you're speaking of but just that IF it happened, then trust could be reborn.

I don't think "true love" can override wisdom on some issues. You can truly love someone and still know you can't trust them.

Lord, I had a fiancee like that. I loved him to death, but I didn't trust him any further than I could throw him. Took back my wedding dress and canceled everything right in the middle of the whole thing.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I agree with you Rico. However, I do know what they are saying about it turning to bitterness too.

I have seen people that will not forgive themselves and they are some of the most unhappy people in the world. Sometimes to forgive others, you have to forgive yourself first!

Exactly. I see the point that is being made concerning bitterness taking root in our hearts. As I have said, I believe it is better to forgive regardless of being asked or not, but that has more to do with our own weakness than what I am reading in the Bible.