History of Tithes in the Church

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The point is there was no monetary system like our federal reserve. They had to trade goods for another tangible resource even if it was gold or silver. Gold and silver is a precious metal therefore the use of it was more Alike bartering than a monetary system. BTW, I have logic. You may not agree with my logic, but that doesn’t mean I don’t possess it.



It is very conclusive.

Do we not use money today?

Do we barter today?

Do you think they had a monetary system that consisted of car payments, electric bills, or do you think that their primary interest was in what was grown or raised on their lands. Most people today don’t even know anything about farming when the Bible bears out that they where a nation that was supported by agriculture regardless of their monetary system.




Never intended to align with the law to begin with.



That is your opinion. I can give something conclusive, our monetary system is not identical to theirs. They where not a part of the U.S. government and never heard of a U.S. dollar.

Now gold and silver exchange for good is being categorized "bartering". Here we go again with changing the semantics assumed in the thread by abstracting it out in order to win an argument.

This is just going in circles at this point.

[coksiw]

Man, it is well documented that tithing of all income in order to support the ministry is a post apostolic development, which coincidentally happened during the institutionalization of the doctrine of the trinity.

If you don't see it at this point, you are what the Bible describes as blind to the truth, and intentionally blind because of fear of consequences.

Man, when I turned to the truth of the Bible, I got my entire family against me, and my neighbors, and friends, and my classmates, and the government. Threatened, mocked, public shaming, yelled at, beaten, and other things dont' want to talk about ... couldn't care less. I pray that some of you don't end up like the Pharises, that were too worry about the approval of men, and other consequences to believe the truth.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

.

Nobody? I spend way over 10% of my income on food. More like 25%.

No. I didn’t say nobody. I said “nobody typically”. Don’t twist my words brother.

So you spend twenty five percent of your income on food? And grow a large garden?

This implies to me that you could probably benefit from a lesson in stewardship, or that you are extremely poor. There’s nothing wrong with being poor but poor people typically spend a greater percent of their income on food than the rich do.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I agree with this totally. Tithe simply means tenth, so a tenth of anything could be considered a tithe.. The law commanded that a tenth was to be given of the land to the levites because Levi didn’t inherit any portion. that was tithing under the law. We are not under the law, therefore we are not commanded to tithe. Although that doesn’t mean we cannot freely tithe money to support the ministry of the local church.

I’m sure the congregation would be surprised to hear that it doesn’t really matter what they tithe, only that they tithe. So, it would be okay to tithe one tenth of their utility bills? Or their speeding tickets? Or their other expenses?

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Tithe freely is the point being made here so if you want to tithe out of your food budget go ahead. It doesn’t matter.

I’m willing to tithe one hundred percent of my business losses. I’ll be glad to come collect from you.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If you think harvest of the lands of Israel where only consumed by the landowner then that doesn’t sound right.

I don’t think that. I’m not sure why you think I did.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Genesis 13:2
And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

Rich in cattle? It seems that cattle was considered a wealth and not just a food. Logic tells me this, commercial farmers today derive income from their crops. Matter of fact food is the most important resource for Humanity. We eat it, but we also trade it for other things. It was no different in ancient times. Their crops where their livelihood.

Abram tithed on his spoils of war. Not on his personal wealth. You do understand that, don’t you?

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Tithe freely is the point being made here so if you want to tithe out of your food budget go ahead. It doesn’t matter.

So? You admit that your tithing doctrine is not based on scripture? It’s just made up?



[QUOTE=good samaritan;1610546]

Again no condemnation for those who don’t, but I still support it to be a good percentage to be a part of my personal budget and would recommend it.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Do you think think beads and whiskey would be beneficial to the ministry of your local church today?

So we have a Freudian slip here. It seems that you think the ministry should benefit from tithes?

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Would Beads and whiskey help with VCB for your church kids, would they pay the mortgage on a sanctuary to worship in, what about utilities, gas for church van, musical equipment, tracts and bibles for outreach, help for struggling families in the church, etc..?

Brother,
I admit that this was a trap. We have scripture that warns us of leadership that is given to much wine.

Did you know that we also have scripture that warns us of leadership that is given to filthy lucre?

Yet the response of pastors to the two vices are strangely very different. On the one hand they claim that we should completely abstain from wine, and on the other? Not so much! Bring on the filthy lucre!!!

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I think you don’t get it. This isn’t about some doctrinal formula that you have to give to be saved. It is about giving so the church can be more of an impact in this world. I am not certain, but I am wondering if you are against church orthodoxy all together. Maybe you think we should only worship from house to house?

Is it true that you are UPCI? If so, are you familiar with David Gray and his doctrine?

Originally Posted by good samaritan

We may not have a mandate to give tithes of our incomes, but we are commanded to be fruitful. If we choose to separate our Christian walk from our finances then we are gonna be in trouble. God must be Lord over all in our lives and we may not agree on what is necessary for ministry in todays world. Therefore, you may not find it necessary to support local church ministries. If we don’t use are resources to reach our cities with this gospel message, I do think we will be lost. That is not about tithing, but about faithfulness to God’s commission.

Brother, this is true that we are commanded to be fruitful. Could you elaborate on what you believe being fruitful entails? Is it your belief that being fruitful means giving money?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Now gold and silver exchange for good is being categorized "bartering". Here we go again with changing the semantics assumed in the thread by abstracting it out in order to win an argument.

This is just going in circles at this point.

The point was there economy was very different than today, and not any church would benefit from tithing only agricultural goods. Your original claim was that they had money, and that somehow proves that God doesn’t want tithes to ever be money. Abraham tithed the spoils of war and I didn’t read anywhere that any of it was refused.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The point was that the center of commerce for the people of Israel was agriculture. Any gold or silver they received, was probably obtained by an agricultural means. The cheif resource was then agriculture, today it isn’t. Most people have jobs working bringing home a check. Most people have not spent one day on a farm. How could chickens, eggs, or produce pay for any of the expenses of operating a church facility today.

Brother, this statement is absolutely false. It really concerns me that you are leading a congregation? I hope they have more scriptural knowledge than you

2Kgs.22

[1] Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned thirty and one years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Jedidah, the daughter of Adaiah of Boscath.
[2] And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, and walked in all the way of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left.
[3] And it came to pass in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, that the king sent Shaphan the son of Azaliah, the son of Meshullam, the scribe, to the house of the LORD, saying,
[4] Go up to Hilkiah the high priest, that he may sum the silver which is brought into the house of the LORD, which the keepers of the door have gathered of the people:
[5] And let them deliver it into the hand of the doers of the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD: and let them give it to the doers of the work which is in the house of the LORD, to repair the breaches of the house,
[6] Unto carpenters, and builders, and masons, and to buy timber and hewn stone to repair the house.
[7] Howbeit there was no reckoning made with them of the money that was delivered into their hand, because they dealt faithfully.

Ironically, the priests were told to refrain from collecting money, because they were not trustworthy with the offering. (I’m shocked). So they bypassed the priests and paid the money to the “construction workers”. They didn’t have to reckon with them because they “dealt faithfully “.

Interesting!!

Now read this . . .

2Kgs.12

[1] In the seventh year of Jehu Jehoash began to reign; and forty years reigned he in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Zibiah of Beer-sheba.
[2] And Jehoash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all his days wherein Jehoiada the priest instructed him.
[3] But the high places were not taken away: the people still sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places.
[4] And Jehoash said to the priests, All the money of the dedicated things that is brought into the house of the LORD, even the money of every one that passeth the account, the money that every man is set at, and all the money that cometh into any man's heart to bring into the house of the LORD,
[5] Let the priests take it to them, every man of his acquaintance: and let them repair the breaches of the house, wheresoever any breach shall be found.
[6] But it was so, that in the three and twentieth year of king Jehoash the priests had not repaired the breaches of the house.
[7] Then king Jehoash called for Jehoiada the priest, and the other priests , and said unto them, Why repair ye not the breaches of the house? now therefore receive no more money of your acquaintance, but deliver it for the breaches of the house.
[8] And the priests consented to receive no more money of the people, neither to repair the breaches of the house.
[9] But Jehoiada the priest took a chest, and bored a hole in the lid of it, and set it beside the altar, on the right side as one cometh into the house of the LORD: and the priests that kept the door put therein all the money that was brought into the house of the LORD.
[10] And it was so, when they saw that there was much money in the chest, that the king's scribe and the high priest came up, and they put up in bags, and told the money that was found in the house of the LORD.
[11] And they gave the money, being told, into the hands of them that did the work, that had the oversight of the house of the LORD: and they laid it out to the carpenters and builders, that wrought upon the house of the LORD,
[12] And to masons, and hewers of stone, and to buy timber and hewed stone to repair the breaches of the house of the LORD, and for all that was laid out for the house to repair it.
[13] Howbeit there were not made for the house of the LORD bowls of silver, snuffers, basons, trumpets, any vessels of gold, or vessels of silver, of the money that was brought into the house of the LORD:
[14] But they gave that to the workmen, and repaired therewith the house of the LORD.
[15] Moreover they reckoned not with the men, into whose hand they delivered the money to be bestowed on workmen: for they dealt faithfully.

The priests were not faithful and could not be trusted.

The construction workers? They dealt faithfully.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The point was there economy was very different than today, and not any church would benefit from tithing only agricultural goods. Your original claim was that they had money, and that somehow proves that God doesn’t want tithes to ever be money. Abraham tithed the spoils of war and I didn’t read anywhere that any of it was refused.

I didn’t read anywhere where any of it was money.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Once again. The ninth chapter of 1 Corinthians is not about tithes. Nor is it about pastors. Paul was asserting that it was his right as an APOSTLE to have food and drink provided to them.

He clearly taught elders to support the church (not that the church should support them).

Do you admit that this is true?

Once again, in the scripture that I posted, that you responded to above, did Paul clearly instruct the elders to work with their hands and support the church?

Yes?

No?

Just a reminder to Brother Blume and Good Samaritan. There is a question in this post that I don’t believe either of you answered.

Once again,

Did Paul teach the elders in plain language to work with their hands and support the weak in the church?

Yes?

No?

Please respond.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

No. I didn’t say nobody. I said “nobody typically”. Don’t twist my words brother.

Not intentionally twisting. I missed the word typically when I read it.

So you spend twenty five percent of your income on food? And grow a large garden?

This implies to me that you could probably benefit from a lesson in stewardship, or that you are extremely poor. There’s nothing wrong with being poor but poor people typically spend a greater percent of their income on food than the rich do.

Yes, I probably am poor, but raising a garden doesn’t save me money. I raise a garden because I enjoy gardening. In the end, gardening is probably more expensive then buying it in the store. There is probably a reason why farmers are insured to take losses every year. In this economy food is expensive. I have 7 people in my household and my wife is expecting our 6th child. We easily spend $200 weekly on groceries and that doesn’t include eating out.

I’m sure the congregation would be surprised to hear that it doesn’t really matter what they tithe, only that they tithe. So, it would be okay to tithe one tenth of their utility bills? Or their speeding tickets? Or their other expenses?

I don’t question what people tithe on.

I’m willing to tithe one hundred percent of my business losses. I’ll be glad to come collect from you.

I am sure you would.

I don’t think that. I’m not sure why you think I did.

I was just stating that agriculture was a major source of commerce for Israel. People didn’t just plant and raise food for their personal consumption. It seemed like you believed that their system was more a monetary system like ours.

Abram tithed on his spoils of war. Not on his personal wealth. You do understand that, don’t you?

That was the point, that tithes things other than just agricultural products.

So? You admit that your tithing doctrine is not based on scripture? It’s just made up?

I didn’t invent the concept of tithing. If the Bible didn’t use the word tithe I wouldn’t have even heard of the word, so I guess it has a biblical basis.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Again no condemnation for those who don’t, but I still support it to be a good percentage to be a part of my personal budget and would recommend it.

I don’t understand?

Brother,
I admit that this was a trap. We have scripture that warns us of leadership that is given to much wine.

Did you know that we also have scripture that warns us of leadership that is given to filthy lucre?

Yet the response of pastors to the two vices are strangely very different. On the one hand they claim that we should completely abstain from wine, and on the other? Not so much! Bring on the filthy lucre!!!

I cannot be responsible for what pastors do, I can only be accountable for me.

Is it true that you are UPCI? If so, are you familiar with David Gray and his doctrine?

Yes and No

Brother, this is true that we are commanded to be fruitful. Could you elaborate on what you believe being fruitful entails? Is it your belief that being fruitful means giving money?

Do you think being fruitful is going to involve spending money?

I am certain being fruitful is going to involve committing all of our resources. So yes, I believe it is giving money, but it isn’t limited to money.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother, this statement is absolutely false. It really concerns me that you are leading a congregation? I hope they have more scriptural knowledge than you

You are being rude. I enjoy dialogue with you. We have come this far without being offensive, so let’s not start now.

2Kgs.22

[1] Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned thirty and one years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Jedidah, the daughter of Adaiah of Boscath.
[2] And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, and walked in all the way of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left.
[3] And it came to pass in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, that the king sent Shaphan the son of Azaliah, the son of Meshullam, the scribe, to the house of the LORD, saying,
[4] Go up to Hilkiah the high priest, that he may sum the silver which is brought into the house of the LORD, which the keepers of the door have gathered of the people:
[5] And let them deliver it into the hand of the doers of the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD: and let them give it to the doers of the work which is in the house of the LORD, to repair the breaches of the house,
[6] Unto carpenters, and builders, and masons, and to buy timber and hewn stone to repair the house.
[7] Howbeit there was no reckoning made with them of the money that was delivered into their hand, because they dealt faithfully.

Ironically, the priests were told to refrain from collecting money, because they were not trustworthy with the offering. (I’m shocked). So they bypassed the priests and paid the money to the “construction workers”. They didn’t have to reckon with them because they “dealt faithfully “.

Interesting!!

Now read this . . .

2Kgs.12

[1] In the seventh year of Jehu Jehoash began to reign; and forty years reigned he in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Zibiah of Beer-sheba.
[2] And Jehoash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all his days wherein Jehoiada the priest instructed him.
[3] But the high places were not taken away: the people still sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places.
[4] And Jehoash said to the priests, All the money of the dedicated things that is brought into the house of the LORD, even the money of every one that passeth the account, the money that every man is set at, and all the money that cometh into any man's heart to bring into the house of the LORD,
[5] Let the priests take it to them, every man of his acquaintance: and let them repair the breaches of the house, wheresoever any breach shall be found.
[6] But it was so, that in the three and twentieth year of king Jehoash the priests had not repaired the breaches of the house.
[7] Then king Jehoash called for Jehoiada the priest, and the other priests , and said unto them, Why repair ye not the breaches of the house? now therefore receive no more money of your acquaintance, but deliver it for the breaches of the house.
[8] And the priests consented to receive no more money of the people, neither to repair the breaches of the house.
[9] But Jehoiada the priest took a chest, and bored a hole in the lid of it, and set it beside the altar, on the right side as one cometh into the house of the LORD: and the priests that kept the door put therein all the money that was brought into the house of the LORD.
[10] And it was so, when they saw that there was much money in the chest, that the king's scribe and the high priest came up, and they put up in bags, and told the money that was found in the house of the LORD.
[11] And they gave the money, being told, into the hands of them that did the work, that had the oversight of the house of the LORD: and they laid it out to the carpenters and builders, that wrought upon the house of the LORD,
[12] And to masons, and hewers of stone, and to buy timber and hewed stone to repair the breaches of the house of the LORD, and for all that was laid out for the house to repair it.
[13] Howbeit there were not made for the house of the LORD bowls of silver, snuffers, basons, trumpets, any vessels of gold, or vessels of silver, of the money that was brought into the house of the LORD:
[14] But they gave that to the workmen, and repaired therewith the house of the LORD.
[15] Moreover they reckoned not with the men, into whose hand they delivered the money to be bestowed on workmen: for they dealt faithfully.

The priests were not faithful and could not be trusted.

The construction workers? They dealt faithfully.

There is a lot of time between Leviticus and second Kings. Hundreds of years. I am sure that coinage is coming into the picture by the time of this passage. I was referring to earlier times in Israel’s history. Shortly from the time of this passage Israel is going to be no more.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Just a reminder to Brother Blume and Good Samaritan. There is a question in this post that I don’t believe either of you answered.

Once again,

Did Paul teach the elders in plain language to work with their hands and support the weak in the church?

Yes?

No?

Please respond.

I will respond to this more tomorrow got to go to work tonight. I am blessed to be able to work personally with my hands.