1000 year reign

[Sister Alvear]

I see scriptures differently but I do appreciate your words and thoughts. Blessings to you today, my friend...

[Michael The Disciple]

Mfblume said:

Amen. He rules now UNTIL all enemies are beneath his feet. All enemies are beneath his feet when the rapture occurs, since it is then that PHYSICAL DEATH is finished. And since millennialism teaches that physical death continues on after the rapture, millennialism conflicts with scripture.

Since death is swallowed up in victory at the rapture, after which the great white throne occurs, it is no wonder that Paul's references in Isa 25:8 mentions all tears are wiped away at that point, since all tears are specifically said to be wiped away only after the great white throne judgment. This means the rapture is the last thing before the great white throne judgment.

It is THEN, also, that the resurrection of damnation occurs.


Quote:
Joh 5:28-29 KJV Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Act 24:15 KJV And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

In order for these passages to coincide with 1 Cor 15's note of physical death ending at the rapture, the resurrection of the just is the rapture, which occurs when the resurrection of damnation, or of the unjust, occurs. Otherwise, scripture contradicts itself!

Me:

Taken in a very narrow context one might agree. Yet we are told to "rightly divide" the word of truth. The Baptist believer after quoting "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" and if anyone says different the Bible must contradict itself! Well from a BAPTIST view that would seem logical right?

Well when taking into consideration the WHOLE CONTEXT of scripture 1 Cor. 15 is certainly the truth. But do the few verses in question anwer all questions concering the rapture and WHAT FOLLWS AFTER? Of course not. Thats why the book of Revelation is given to us. To ADD TO OUR KNOWLEDGE of the truth. If there is AN ETERNITY (trillions of trillions of years) to follow the rapture it reasons there would be more said about it than a few verses.

In light of ALL scripture:

22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24: Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25: For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Verses 22-23 speaks of the resurrection of those who are IN CHRIST. That is the rapture. Following that is the end. The end defined as when he shall have put down all authority and power. As with some other Bible truths this is done in phases.

Example:

He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

We take that to mean if someone does this thay are saved right now. And it is true.

Yet Jesus ALSO said:

He that endures to the end shall be saved.

Are these scriptures contradicting each other or do they show PHASES to salvation? The answer is obvious.

When Jesus comes at the post trib rapture that is the end of the present order of things. It is the end of death for those who are IN CHRIST. But it is not the end of everything YAH has planned for the Earth. Neither necessarily for death to unbelievers.

Phase one of the Kingdom message is the day of Pentecost to the rapture.

Phase one will end at the rapture. Phase two will be from the beginning of the 1000 year reign until he and the Church have LITERALLY ruled over nations/peoples for a thousand years. Phase two ends with the devil being allowed to come out of the bottomless pit to stir rebellion one last time. Jesus defeats them all as fire comes down and devours them.

So Christ reigns until all enemies (satan included) are fully and completely defeated. Then (apparently) the Sonship will disappear and Jesus/Yeshua will reign as YHWH.

Then phase three will begin where no unrighteousness will again rear its head. After the White Throne judgment. After satan is cast into the Gehenna.

1: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rev. 21:1



As to 1 Cor. 15:51-53

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

This of course is the fulfillment of this:

18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt. 16:18

When Saints die they go to the grave. The gates of death. At the resurrection they are set free. FOR THEM death is swallowed up in victory. The gates of hell have been overcome by Christ. Those who were held therein now gain the victory of life eternal.

Mfblume said:

Since death is swallowed up in victory at the rapture, after which the great white throne occurs, it is no wonder that Paul's references in Isa 25:8 mentions all tears are wiped away at that point, since all tears are specifically said to be wiped away only after the great white throne judgment.

Me:

But Mfblume does not account for the MANY scriptures covering events BETWEEN the rapture and the White Throne Judgment. Amillenium teaching cannot explain WHO IS BEING RULED OVER AFTER THE RAPTURE HAS OCCURED.

However the SCRIPTURES show various time Saints RULING over nations of people.

Can one scripture such as "death being swallowed up in victory" be applied to more than one event?

Here is an example of one scripture being applied to two separate events that were HUNDREDS OF YEARS APART.

The Spirit applied this concerning the exodus from Egypt.

1: When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
2: As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images. Hosea 11:1-2

Yet the Spirit applies this same verse hundreds of years later to the time when Jesus came back from Egypt.

14: When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Matt. 2:14-15

So God has been known to apply one scripture to several events. If he says death ends in 1 Cor. 15 then it means death ends for the Saints who were IN CHRIST at his coming.

Then after the 1000 year reign we see the White Throne judgment. There the wicked receive their judgment. When they are cast into Gehenna along with death and hades then that same context of scripture is used to describe the COMPLETE annihilation of the lost along with death itself.

Personally I dont think I have total understanding of how the Kingdom will unfold from now to eternity. However the Amillenium teaching seems to ignore or symbolize away a lot of scripture. To much for me to feel comfortable with.

Will this satisfy Mfblume? No. I dont expect it will. Yet in taking into account all scripture I believe this is more in line with the whole counsel of YHWH than the total symbolizing method of interpretation.

Does his interpretation satisfy me and many others? No.

When time is available I will present more on the issue.

In summary 1 Cor. 15 cannot simply be taken on its own APART FROM the entire body of scripture concerning the resurrection and eternity. It needs to fit AS ONE MORE PIECE of the truth it takes to make the whole.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by The teacher

Sister Alvear,
At the personal level, we are no longer enslaved to sin, but exercise spritual dominion through the Holy Ghost in our lives. That is major, but unfortunately that is as far as most Christians believe. Thus, their reign is limited ONLY to themselves at a personal victory level.

Beyond that personal level, there is a corporate level of reigning where the entire Church reigns with Christ. I previously gave the example of how the Civil War should be interpreted as ruling with a rod of iron, but unfortunately most Christians don't see it that way. They don't make the connection between their prayers at a corporate level and a happening on earth at a national or global level. Without seeing that connection, or believing it is there, we limit ourselves to personal level victories only. The Church needs to believe the Word and expand our vision to exercise greater dominion in the earth, pulling down all strongholds by faith.

Those are my thoughts for your consideration. God bless.

Well the Civil War example shows how prayer can change the course of a nation to which we all agree. Yet because one great sin was removed was America right with God? How many in America in the 1800's were baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Spirit?

So yes we can by faith do mighty things. Yet no nation is currently ruled by Christians.

This whole system of things does not interpret itself by JESUS and his life.
He is our pattern for living.

Did he have a place to lay his head? Did everyone recognize his authority? Who did? His own followers did. The demons did. Why did he not just command all demons to leave Israel along with Rome?

BECAUSE IT WAS NOT TIME FOR THAT TO HAPPEN!

Why are we rejected and despised by the world today even tho SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING .......by faith we are seated with Christ?

If it was Gods plan for us to have the RULE OVER NATIONS now why could not Paul OVER RULE satan when he planned to go visit the Thessalonian Church? Instead twice satan stopped him.

Are we more anointed than Paul was?

Let the example of Christ and the Apostles be part of how we interpret their teachings! Did Jesus expect we would have more power over the nations than he had?

Or does Gods will and timing have any place in interpreting his word?

Because the sovereign God has times and seasons.

[Pressing-On]

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

What does this mean, "no more sea"? It seems that the two are joined together. Are we looking for two things when it seems to imply that He has made it one and the same. If there is no more sea then it seems to imply no gulf between them.

Rev. 5: 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

These passages seem to clearly point to Him being worthy to become our salvation, thus making us kings and priests now.

When you read Rev. 21 it doesn't, IMO, seem to continue anything other than reigning with Him in victory.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

What does this mean, "no more sea"? It seems that the two are joined together. Are we looking for two things when it seems to imply that He has made it one and the same. If there is no more sea then it seems to imply no gulf between them.

NO MORE SEA is a very interesting statement.

The last time we read of the sea before this statement it is here:

Rev 20:13 KJV And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

It is mentioned last in association with a new heaven and earth. It could simply mean the old sea was as much gone as the old heaven and earth.

As to the real meaning, there are as many opinions as there are people.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

if we are reigning now it is sure different than I expect...

Sister that is the entire problem with paradigms. Imagine a trinitarian coming into oneness and hearing he will see no one except Jesus in glory! He would say it is sure different than what he expected.

[Michael The Disciple]

So what will the resurrected Saints do? What or who will they reign OVER?

[mfblume]

Thank you, Michael the Disciple for your response. I appreciate a long-awaited point by point response. Thanks for your time. I know you are busy, so it means that much more.

But, as I will show, you have some glaring oversights and ommissions in your point-by-point response. You neglected to deal with some MAJOR points I raised, and neglected some MAJOR statements Paul used in 1 Cor 15 that disallow for your millennium.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Taken in a very narrow context one might agree. Yet we are told to "rightly divide" the word of truth.

Brother, it is a given that we must rightly divide the word. In light of we read in 1 Cor 15, that is the only conclusion we can come up with without contradicting scripture.

Well when taking into consideration the WHOLE CONTEXT of scripture 1 Cor. 15 is certainly the truth. But do the few verses in question answer all questions concerning the rapture and WHAT FOLLOWS AFTER? Of course not. Thats why the book of Revelation is given to us. To ADD TO OUR KNOWLEDGE of the truth. If there is AN ETERNITY (trillions of trillions of years) to follow the rapture it reasons there would be more said about it than a few verses.

No, because if Revelation ADDS to what is already taught in the way you propose it does, then it contradicts 1 Cor 15.

In light of ALL scripture:

22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24: Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25: For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Verses 22-23 speaks of the resurrection of those who are IN CHRIST. That is the rapture. Following that is the end. The end defined as when he shall have put down all authority and power. As with some other Bible truths this is done in phases.

There are only TWO "Phases" Every man who will resurrect is mentioned in verse 23. Every man either has to be involved with (1) Christ's resurrection that third day 200 years ago, as saints of old arose then, or (2) at Christ's coming. There is no more resurrection to life that gives victory over death. Paul taught two phases alone. EVERY MAN, he said. Making phases is an alaborate way of adding ot the Word of God to say something the bible never says. It very easily could have said MANY PHASES. But it did not.

Example:

He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. We take that to mean if someone does this thay are saved right now. And it is true. Yet Jesus ALSO said: He that endures to the end shall be saved. Are these scriptures contradicting each other or do they show PHASES to salvation? The answer is obvious.

You are presuming that because 1 Cor 15 is not speaking about people saved outside of Christ there are other people outside of Christ who will still resurrect. You might refer to the resurrection of damnation. But the context of 1 Cor 15 states that death (physical death is the context) is destroyed at the rapture. So there can be no more physical dying after the rapture. This means there is no further resurrection after another 1000 years, let alone no physical deaths after the rapture. And since the context is speaking about physical death, it only regards those who will experience victory over it, who can only be in Christ. There are no resurrections to eternal life aside from those who are in Christ.

ALL ENEMIES ARE DESTROYED WHEN DEATH IS DEFEATED IN 1 COR 15. You have sinners in the millennium. ENEMIES OF THE LORD. Is "ALL ENEMIES" to be understood as ALL or not?

Many presume that there are people outside of Christ who will be resurrected, such as old testament saints, or perhaps saints not in Christ during millennium.

When Jesus comes at the post trib rapture that is the end of the present order of things. It is the end of death for those who are IN CHRIST.

Incorrect. It is the end of the physical death altogether. We know that because it is at this point that Paul says death is destroyed and swallowed up in victory, and ALL ENEMIES are destroyed. You have enemies in the millennium. Also, Isai 25:8, from which Paul quotes also, says that THIS is the time when all tears are wiped away. Rev 21 says this does not occur until after the white throne judgment. This means there is no gap between the rapture and the white throne judgment where you insert your future millennium. This can only mean the millennium stands as the church age in Rev 20.

Death is swallowed up in victory at the rapture. You claim this is only death for the saints, implying there is death for sinners after the rapture. That cannot be true because Paul quoted Isa 25:8, saying that prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled when the rapture takes place. That verse also states all tears are wiped away. So you find the reference to all tears being wiped away in Rev 21 as being fulfilled at the rapture according to Paul's reference to Isa 25.

The son of God gives up the Kingdom to the Father at the point of the rapture. This also proves your millennialism incorrect. You claim THE SON BEGINS TO RULE at that point, when Paul said He gives up the kingdom at that point. If the Son gives up the kingdom when the rapture occurs, then there can be no 1000 years for the Son of God to rule!

Also, You claim it is only physical death for the saints that is destroyed. However, Paul said that Christ rules until all enemies are beneath His feet. Paul said this is fulfilled when the rapture occurs. Does Christ have all enemies under His feet at the time of the rapture, and ceases to rule, although physical death continues after the rapture?????

But it is not the end of everything YAH has planned for the Earth. Neither necessarily for death to unbelievers.

Wrong. Because Christ ceases to rule as Son of God at the rapture, there can be no additional 1000 years when the Son of God rules, as you propose. That, in turn, disallows everything associated with your millennium to not occur whatsoever after the rapture, including sinners and death of sinners.

So we have the fact that Christ ceases to rule at the rapture, as well as the fact that death is destroyed at the rapture. And both those points make it doubly impossible for there to be a millennium.

continued...

[mfblume]

...continued

Phase one of the Kingdom message is the day of Pentecost to the rapture.

Phase one will end at the rapture. Phase two will be from the beginning of the 1000 year reign until he and the Church have LITERALLY ruled over nations/peoples for a thousand years.

Incorrect. That is adding to the Word and jumbling the word while you ignore certain passages and statements which disallow for such a conglomeration.

All that there will be is the church from Pentecost to Rapture, at which time the Son of God ceases to rule because all enemies have been put Under His feet. This cessation of rule by the Son disallows for Him to rule during any 1000 years afterwards.

And Paul connects Isa 25:8 with the rapture, saying the prophecy is fulfilled at the rapture. Isa 25:8 says all tears are wiped away, which does not occur until the white throne judgment. The only way this fits together is if the rapture takes us to the white throne judgment. Otherwise you have Isa 25:8 fulfilled 1000 years before Rev 21 says it is fulfilled!

Phase two ends with the devil being allowed to come out of the bottomless pit to stir rebellion one last time. Jesus defeats them all as fire comes down and devours them.

Nope. Such a concoction of phases does not work, all for the reasons I showed above.

So Christ reigns until all enemies (satan included) are fully and completely defeated. Then (apparently) the Sonship will disappear and Jesus/Yeshua will reign as YHWH.

This occurs at the rapture.

The wording of the passage below disallows for time to stand between the rapture and the cessation of rule. The cessation of rule OCCURS AT THE RAPTURE.

1Co 15:23-26 KJV But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

the only way you can say there is a millennium here is to say the COMING OF CHRIST in verse 23 is at the end of the Millennium. But that cannot work, because Paul is speaking of the resurrection of those who are Christ's. The rapture is a resurrection of those who are Christ's, and the rapture occurs before your millennium in your thinking. So why did Paul not mention the rapture in verse 23?

If HE DID mention the rapture in verse 23, which I believe he did, then there can be no millennium afterwards because it is at the point of the rapture that the end occurs, when Christ ceases to rule.

Then phase three will begin where no unrighteousness will again rear its head. After the White Throne judgment. After satan is cast into the Gehenna.

Incorrect. Paul said the rapture causes Isa 25:8 to be fulfilled.

1Co 15:54 KJV So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Isa 25:8 KJV He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Rev 21:4 KJV And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The all important connection in the bible that shows the rapture takes us directly to the white throne judgment are two notes in Rev 21:4. When God wipes all tears from their eyes, there is no more death. That is exactly what Paul said in 1 Cor 15:23-26, speaking of the rapture! And the note of all tears being wiped away is in the prophecy Paul quotes in 1 Cor 15:54 in giving us the time of the fulfillment of that verse at the rapture.

As to 1 Cor. 15:51-53

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

This of course is the fulfillment of this:

18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt. 16:18

You ignore the actual prophecy Paul quoted. Isaiah 25:8, which betrays your entire millennial doctrine as error by the association of wiping all tears away with the defeat of death, which occurs after the white throne judgment directly to which I claim the rapture takes us.

Isa 25:8 KJV He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

When Saints die they go to the grave. The gates of death. At the resurrection they are set free. FOR THEM death is swallowed up in victory. The gates of hell have been overcome by Christ. Those who were held therein now gain the victory of life eternal.

Amen. But the actual prophecy Paul cites says that all tears are wiped away. That is shown in Rev 21:4 after the white throne!!!

continued...

[mfblume]

conclusion...

But Mfblume does not account for the MANY scriptures covering events BETWEEN the rapture and the White Throne Judgment. Amillenium teaching cannot explain WHO IS BEING RULED OVER AFTER THE RAPTURE HAS OCCURRED.

Brother, there a no "buts" about it. The scriptures in 1 Cor 15 show that all tears are wiped away at the rapture. You cannot say, "But but but". Let's not ignore Paul's reference. You are trying to squeeze out of the issue at hand by standing in your dilemma and pointing to something else.

Our whole difference of opinion is based upon my proposition that the scriptures you refer to about our rulership over nations IS FULFILLED in the here and NOW. You are arguing in a circle now. You are saying that I am wrong about ruling now, because you are right about not ruling now and that we rule later. Instead of actually responding to my reference in Isa 25:8, you just say, "but but but what about something else?"

However the SCRIPTURES show various time Saints RULING over nations of people.

That is right now. And it totally fits the bible! Eph 2 says we're seated with him, and Eph 1 says He is seated over all NAMES and POWERS in this world and the world to come. So we rule now as we will rule after the white throne. You PRESUME it must be sinners we rule over after the rapture. Where does it say that? We rule over the sinful nations NOW. But after the rapture there are no sinners. But why say we do not rule then? It never said we rule SINNERS after the rapture. You added that to the scriptures.

Can one scripture such as "death being swallowed up in victory" be applied to more than one event?

No! This is a common ploy used, but it has no solid precedent. Many say there is more than one fulfillment of a prophecy. And there is in certain old testament types and new testament antitypes, though. Paul said the prophecy will BE BROUGHT TO PASS. That means it no longer awaits anything. Bringing something "to pass" means it's purpose is finished. It's fulfillment HAS PASSED. Before coming to pass, it awaited fulfillment. If it was to be fulfilled TWICE, then Paul would not say IT WAS BROUGHT TO PASS.

Here is an example of one scripture being applied to two separate events that were HUNDREDS OF YEARS APART.

The Spirit applied this concerning the exodus from Egypt.

1: When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
2: As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images. Hosea 11:1-2

Yet the Spirit applies this same verse hundreds of years later to the time when Jesus came back from Egypt.

14: When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Matt. 2:14-15

So God has been known to apply one scripture to several events.

There are TYPICAL events of the Old Testament that have TRUE fulfillment later in the New Testament. But let's not fail to notice a common denominator in such instances that are genuine examples of double fulfillment. The common denominator is that there is a lesser fulfillment before the cross and the greater fulfillment after the cross. WE FIND NO SUCH EXAMPLE where something is fulfilled BOTH TIMES AFTER THE CROSS.

This is an elaborate attempt to force the scriptures to say anything we want, when we CAN ONLY take an Old Testament fulfillment and see it fulfilled a second time SPIRITUALLY in the New Testament.

If we start doing that with prophecies, then what will stop anyone from saying there will be two white throne judgments, or two millenniums, or two times when Christ ceases to rule? lol

It is always AN OLD TESTAMENT TYPE AND NEW TESTAMENT ANTITYPE that comprises any double fulfillment in the bible. Can you show me an example where this is not true?

If he says death ends in 1 Cor. 15 then it means death ends for the Saints who were IN CHRIST at his coming.

Incorrect. He ceases to rule when death ends. That means He cannot rule during a millennium. And the only way to reconcile it all is to realize that death is done away with forever at the rapture, and so He ceases to rule since all ENEMIES are put under His feet.

WATCH THIS: If he ceases to rule when all enemies are under his feet, HOW COME THERE ARE SINNERS IN THE MILLENNIUM? SINNERS ARE HIS ENEMIES. You said sinners exist in the millennium! And after the millennium the nations are gathered by satan to war against the holy city. That sounds like ENEMIES of Christ to me. But Paul said ALL ENEMIES are put beneath His feet at the rapture, the last one being death.

You have to either say NO ENEMIES are put under his feet at the rapture, or ALL of them are. That means you have to say the COMING OF CHRIST is NOT THE RAPTURE, although that would violate the thought that Paul listed EVERY MAN's resurrection to physical immortal life as being only two events... Christ's and those who are His at his coming.

Anyway you slice it, it does not work.

Personally I dont think I have total understanding of how the Kingdom will unfold from now to eternity. However the Amillenium teaching seems to ignore or symbolize away a lot of scripture. To much for me to feel comfortable with.

No, it is the only view that makes sense of all the scriptures without causing them to contradict one another.

Will this satisfy Mfblume? No. I dont expect it will. Yet in taking into account all scripture I believe this is more in line with the whole counsel of YHWH than the total symbolizing method of interpretation.

It cannot be. You made several errors.

1) You said death is only defeated for the saints in 1 Cor 15. Paul said ALL ENEMIES are defeated then, and you have enemies during the millennium.

2) You ignored Isa 25:8's reference to all tears wiped away, although Paul cited that verse to say the contents are fulfilled at the rapture.

3) You said there are double fulfillments, which the BIBLE DOES show us, but failed to notice the only examples found in the Bible are only fulfilled in an Old Testament type and a New Testament antitype.

4) You failed to note that Christ ceases to rule when death is destroyed at the rapture, disallowing for a millennium after the rapture for Him to rule.

In summary 1 Cor. 15 cannot simply be taken on its own APART FROM the entire body of scripture concerning the resurrection and eternity. It needs to fit AS ONE MORE PIECE of the truth it takes to make the whole.

I agree perfectly. And my proposition shows that the only way it can fit the rest of the bible, and not propose contradictions in the bible, is to say THERE IS NO MILLENNIUM, and the church age is the 1000 years in Rev 20.

Will you be satisfied with that? No. You perhaps will repeat your error in neglecting to deal with points I have repeated now many times. You cannot keep shoving these under the carpet, Michael. You have to deal with EVERYTHING I propose that causes error in your teaching.

Instead of refusing to answer a direct point I make, and saying, "But what about this other thing?", you need to be honest with yourself and try to answer each biblical point I show that contradicts your teaching.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, EVERYONE! I am enjoying this thoughtful chat. Is it not great that we can chat without personal insults and attitudes?