Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yep, you believe we receive Christ's righteousness by being righteous (Works). A performance based salvation that mocks the cross and the redemptive plan of God. Legalism at it's finest. Religion. Dead where it stands.

I believe that we receive Christ's righteousness by faith. And it is that imputed righteousness, our partaking of that divine nature, that brings obedience. Because we are changed, new creatures. It is now in our very spiritual nature to obey. A fish can't help but swim. A son of God can't help but be righteous. It's a change of nature.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[Austin]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Was the rich, young ruler wicked from birth?

Wicked is the fruit of being sinful/. I think he lived a very good life style and was respected as much as those today respect people who live a healthy and clean lifestyle.
People then were no different than today in their human attitudes toward things and people.
Maybe some day you'll get to ask him.
Who but Jesus can know the spirit of a man.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

the will of the Father is to believe on the Son whom he sent

1 john 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

How did he get a "sin nature" Mike? I don't believe in it. If Adam did not have it how did "man" get it. lol

Man got a sin nature when he succumbed to what the enemy tempted him to do. The knowledge he received was not sin nature, but sin nature came WITH IT since it was from the enemy. It was like the enemy's desire was transferred to mankind. The appeal of the fruit was to make one wise -- self exaltation. This became a disease in our flesh. While God created us to have dominion and to be great, that is only good in the confines of God leading us and inspiring us, not with the independence satan tempted mankind to enter into.

The fruit was not sin nature, and neither was the knowledge. But sin nature entered man by sheer virtue of the fact that man followed the way of the enemy. Instead we partake of the divine nature by following after the Spirit in antithesis to Adam's way.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by acerrak

the will of the Father is to believe on the Son whom he sent

1 john 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us

Is that all? No more to it than that? Jesus had a lot of things to say about what you should do. You must feed the poor and clothe the naked, for example. And that was his criteria in separating the sheep from the goats -- He doesn't care about what you believed.

Even the scripture you quoted says there more to it than belief. You have to love one another.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Is that all? No more to it than that? Jesus had a lot of things to say about what you should do. You must feed the poor and clothe the naked, for example. And that was his criteria in separating the sheep from the goats -- He doesn't care about what you believed.

Even the scripture you quoted says there more to it than belief. You have to love one another.

Lol timmy dont be dumb i know your smarter than that,

Love feeds the Poor , clothes the naked
Yea try Loving your enemies and see how easy that works out for you.

exspecially if they personally hurt you.

His whole 2 commandments was Love God and Love others. <- thats our commandments.

Thats how we know who a real christian is, By the fruit of the Spirit, which is LOve its the first thing on the list.

we are told to belive on the Son By the Father, and Love others, not just your friends and family. But the beggers , the ones in Jail, the muslims. everyone.

Love dude.

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It refers to children being innocent. It refers to children being the ideal state WE must be like
If Children are not innocent, this would be meaningless
Jer 19:4 I will do so because these people have left me and have defiled this place. They have offered sacrifices in it to other gods which neither they nor their ancestors nor the kings of Judah knew anything about. They have filled it with the blood of innocent children.
Adam and Eve became sinners when they sinned and understood good from evil.
But children don't understand good from evil YET
deu 1:39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it..
In fact as far as the little children were concerned, they did believe. And the text indicates they were without sin...that it would take an adult to CAUSE them to sin
Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,
Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I didn't say it did. It does insinuate their angels always see the fact of God. That is what I said

Im sorry but THIS deserves a
Try reading it again...first of all Mark only goes up to chapter 16...so where you get Mark 18 is anyone's guess
Second of all you broke one of the first rules of interpretation, ignoring the context or taking a verse out of context.
If you read the context you'd see how Jesus was speaking NOT of hsi disciples but of children
Mat 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:7 "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!
Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Mat 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
No he was referring to children.. He picked a child up and kept referring to the child..see above in red

Praxeas,

You have much reference to children within the scriptures above. What age must a person be to be classified a child, ages 4-11? There’s a law in effect where children under the age of 7 can’t be left alone at home, due to their mental capability of not being able to discern bad from good.

You stated in your above quotes:

1) "And the text indicates they were without sin...that it would take an adult to CAUSE them to sin" and "If you read the context you'd see how Jesus was speaking NOT of hsi disciples but of children"


2) "It refers to children being innocent. It refers to children being the ideal state WE must be like"


Lets review Luke 18:16, "But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

What information can we obtain from Luke 18:16?

We read that Jesus called these children unto him. These children were able to walk and were mentally capable of understanding and responding to Jesus when He called them. Jesus then said, "the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

Jesus was explaining that his disciples "should be such as these", with the humility and modesty of children. If you disagree, I'll begin a new thread on those scriptures alone and we can read "what saith the forum."

I agree with you, Jesus was speaking about children. But while he was speaking about the children in his presence, he was indirectly suggesting that we, followers of God, that we must become like "such as these." You quoted the scripture above, "Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Here Jesus spoke to adults when telling them they must become like children.


In response to your quotes:

1) The text doesn't indicate these children were sinless! Again, you quoted above, "Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."

Notice Jesus said if you cause one of these little ones "who believe in me to sin." Once again, read the entire context as you suggested. He was indirectly referring to His followers. Remember, Jesus called on the child, the child didn't call on Jesus. The scripture neither gives any reference that the child was a believer. For all we know these children were walking by when Jesus called on them.

How much can we really become as children when Paul states, 1 Corinthians 13:11, When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.



2) Really, how innocent are children? Lets turn to 2 Kings 2:23

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head."

Surely these children knew good from evil? Their insults toward the prophet came at a deep cost. Many of these kids where killed when God's Judgment fell.

I personally know a pastor whose daughters received the Holy Ghost around 5 to 6 years of age and others were 4 years old. In your opinion, can a child sin at ages 4-5-6? If no, do they need to obey Acts 2:38? How do these girls acknowledge Jesus as their savior without repenting of their sins?


According to Peter in Acts 2:38, Repent, and be baptized every one of you. Then in verse 39 Peter states, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, .....even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

What promise did Peter speak about? Holy Ghost infilling of course. Why would their children need to repent if they're innocent? Surely little children can't be sinners, they're innocent, correct?


Here's a question for you. If children at age 4-6 are sinning, and they die without Holy Ghost infilling and Jesus name baptism, in your opinion, would these sinning children be lost for eternity? Understanding of course that these children knew good from evil.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Praxeas,

You have much reference to children within the scriptures above. What age must a person be to be classified a child, ages 4-11? There’s a law in effect where children under the age of 7 can’t be left alone at home, due to their mental capability of not being able to discern bad from good.

You stated in your above quotes:

1) "And the text indicates they were without sin...that it would take an adult to CAUSE them to sin" and "If you read the context you'd see how Jesus was speaking NOT of hsi disciples but of children"


2) "It refers to children being innocent. It refers to children being the ideal state WE must be like"


Lets review Luke 18:16, "But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

What information can we obtain from Luke 18:16?

We read that Jesus called these children unto him. These children were able to walk and were mentally capable of understanding and responding to Jesus when He called them. Jesus then said, "the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

Jesus was explaining that his disciples "should be such as these", with the humility and modesty of children. If you disagree, I'll begin a new thread on those scriptures alone and we can read "what saith the forum."

I agree with you, Jesus was speaking about children. But while he was speaking about the children in his presence, he was indirectly suggesting that we, followers of God, that we must become like "such as these." You quoted the scripture above, "Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Here Jesus spoke to adults when telling them they must become like children.


In response to your quotes:

1) The text doesn't indicate these children were sinless! Again, you quoted above, "Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."

Notice Jesus said if you cause one of these little ones "who believe in me to sin." Once again, read the entire context as you suggested. He was indirectly referring to His followers. Remember, Jesus called on the child, the child didn't call on Jesus. The scripture neither gives any reference that the child was a believer. For all we know these children were walking by when Jesus called on them.

How much can we really become as children when Paul states, 1 Corinthians 13:11, When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.



2) Really, how innocent are children? Lets turn to 2 Kings 2:23

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head."

Surely these children knew good from evil? Their insults toward the prophet came at a deep cost. Many of these kids where killed when God's Judgment fell.

I personally know a pastor whose daughters received the Holy Ghost around 5 to 6 years of age and others were 4 years old. In your opinion, can a child sin at ages 4-5-6? If no, do they need to obey Acts 2:38? How do these girls acknowledge Jesus as their savior without repenting of their sins?


According to Peter in Acts 2:38, Repent, and be baptized every one of you. Then in verse 39 Peter states, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, .....even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

What promise did Peter speak about? Holy Ghost infilling of course. Why would their children need to repent if they're innocent? Surely little children can't be sinners, they're innocent, correct?


Here's a question for you. If children at age 4-6 are sinning, and they die without Holy Ghost infilling and Jesus name baptism, in your opinion, would these sinning children be lost for eternity? Understanding of course that these children knew good from evil.

Because Children are the future. A better meaning might be offspring. In other words the promise was not just to those there that day, but to the next generation and beyond

Children at age 4-6 sinning? Im not sure they do. It all goes back to knowing good and evil. There is no specific age for when that happens. Adam was older than Eve but they both gained that knowledge at the same time

When or what age a child is when that happens only God knows.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by acerrak

Lol timmy dont be dumb i know your smarter than that,

Love feeds the Poor , clothes the naked
Yea try Loving your enemies and see how easy that works out for you.

exspecially if they personally hurt you.

His whole 2 commandments was Love God and Love others. <- thats our commandments.

Thats how we know who a real christian is, By the fruit of the Spirit, which is LOve its the first thing on the list.

we are told to belive on the Son By the Father, and Love others, not just your friends and family. But the beggers , the ones in Jail, the muslims. everyone.

Love dude.

So, I was right, then? The will of God is more than just belief?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That's only half the story. Paul describes our works of righteousness as "fruit of the Spirit". Those who "doeth the will" of the Father are they who are led of the Spirit and walking after the Spirit. Not those who are acting out of will power and a self derived desire to make themselves righteous. It is the Spirit of God indwelling the believer, that divine nature, that cries out, convicting of sin, and manifesting Christ's righteousness in the believer.

It's not about "doing". It's about "surrender" to Christ. Paul said that he was crucified with Christ, and yet he lived. Not himself, by CHRIST WHO LIVES WITHIN HIM.

The born again believer who has partaken in the divine nature and has indeed become a "new creature" will obey because it is their nature to obey, not because they force themselves to obey out of religious duty.

The ESV puts it this way...

1 John 3:8-10
English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

The AMP puts it this way...

1 John 3:8-10
Amplified Bible (AMP)
8[But] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].
9No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [a]habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.
10By this it is made clear who take their nature from God and are His children and who take their nature from the devil and are his children: no one who does not practice righteousness [who does not conform to God's will in purpose, thought, and action] is of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother (his fellow [b]believer in Christ).

Obedience is the byproduct of our "nature" being changed.

God ISN'T concerned with WHAT WE DO... God is concerned with WHAT WE ARE. Change what you do and your still just a fallen human being alienated from God with religious practices. Allow God to change what you are... and you are a new creature that manifests obedience by virtue of HIS nature residing in your very being.

This is the problem with legalism. Legalism changes actions but fails to recognize or cultivate a change of "nature". Grace... grace doesn't focus on actions. Grace focuses the fact that the believer's nature must be changed. Obedience then follows... naturally. Unregenerated men can hide behind their obedience to religious rules. However, their nature hasn't been changed and if you knew them deep down, you'd realize that they only cleaned up the outside of the cup (outward actions). But if you are in union with Christ through the Spirit, God's very nature residing in you, partaking in the divine nature of Christ dwelling within you... obedience comes naturally. Continued and habitual sin is... impossible.