What is the purpose of Hell?

[easter]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Sis, Religion is making us bitter.

Jesus didn't like "Religion either"

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by easter

Jesus didn't like "Religion either"
From your post I gather your a man of God who is about to give up his calling.Don't do that.

I won't give up my calling, don't worry. My wife won't let me.

Life is good, Sis.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

There’s much to tell. My metamorphosis is simply the result of experience. Going back to my childhood, I lived in both worlds. For the first 10 years, I was enthralled with life. Our home was planted right next to a large creek, sometimes a river, where you would always find me. The place was a wonderland of nature and exploration. Alone, or with friends, my beginnings were born in God’s backyard. I would eat blackberries, catch fish, and swim in the hot summer sun. The memories are rich, and very real.

But I was soon transformed from this wonderful experience into utter darkness. I was upstairs in our home in bed, and I heard yelling downstairs. I slowly crept down the steps to find what I couldn’t believe. My father and mother were fighting, and my mother was so drunk she couldn’t get off the floor. My father told me, “I’m leaving, son”. I was in total shock. I begged him to take me with him, but to no avail. I watched him drive away, as my world came crashing to the ground, never even knowing there was a problem in our family.

This was the day I grew into man before my time. The childhood of yesterday was lost upon the sea of confusion, fear, and loneliness. My parents divorced, my mother remarried, and I went on to experience a whole new world to help me cope with the pain. I started smoking weed at 11. Drugs became an everyday affair, until I was 18. I slept with so many girls, I can’t remember the number. My brother and sister were killed in a car accident when I was 17. This traumatized me, along with numerous other experiences. So, I joined the Marines right out high school in 1978 to get away from my friends and family. I border lined on hating my stepfather, as through my teen years when he was a drunk, he would beat my mother before my eyes.

After being in the Military, I came in contact with a man who was going to a small Home Missions work of Apostolic nature. I was searching for answers, and was ripe to listen to someone with something better. I was taught One God, Jesus Name baptism, Repentance, and speaking in tongues as the evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost. I had been a Catholic all my life, but felt the Church didn’t do a whole lot of good for my family, so hey, why not try something else! I did just about everything they told me to do.

When it came to receiving the Holy Ghost, I struggled. I would go to the altar, where I was surrounded by screaming and yelling and intense “coaching”. I cried, begged, and pleaded for God to fill me. Out of the corner of my eye, I knew the pastor was watching, waiting to hear that “sign”. I fasted, I prayed, I repented, but nothing. Finally, one day in my barracks I was alone. I knelt next to my bed and began my pleading. I’ll be honest here, because I know countless other people have done the same thing. I began to speak in tongues under my own accord. I did it. I uttered words that I knew would be acceptable to the pressure of the hearers.

So, I went to church, went to the altar like always, and, you guessed it, spoke in tongues and was now labeled “SAVED”. I was elated. I was happy. But, I never forgot this day in 1979.

I was married 1 year later to a girl from my hometown who I witnessed to. We had 4 children by the time I was 25. We are still married today 29 years later, and all but 1 of our children is still alive, with children of their own.

My first pastor was very strict. I followed his ideals for quite some time, but began to question his motive. I saw very strange actions that seemed to represent a controlling by fear. Obey them, submit yourselves, The Man of God, and Hell Fire, these were a very deep part of my initial experience. A few years later, he fell into adultery and lost the church and his family. To this day, the church there has struggled over this fall of our pastor. I was bewildered. Just like when I saw my father leave. How could this happen in the place where I was told, “Peace that passes all understanding is here”?

Little did I know, this was only the beginning of much more to come. I watched one divorce after another rip through our church. I soon heard of Clergy, Pastors, and other famous people in our movement being convicted of child molestation, homosexuality, and once the Internet was born, found that pornography was a mainstay and the big secret on our pews. My daughter had a girl from our church stay the night, where the girl told her she was being molested by her father, who was a Sunday School teacher. He went to prison for this after my daughter had testified, this putting a huge stress on our family.

My real eye opener though, was when I became a pastor. We built the church here from the ground up, in one of the toughest places in the Country. In fact, it is known, the Pacific Northwest is the most difficult area in the Nation to build a church. We came with great passion to help people and to do a work for God. I went through all levels of licensing, becoming Ordained. I’ve have studied the Scripture thoroughly, spending the last 30 years covering every aspect of the Bible, wanting to know the whole truth. I have read countless books on Religion, Holiness, history, the origins of our past, and have been in very heated debates. I also spent a good 5 years of my life, writing my own book, which was a best seller in Bro Enseys Apostolic Library Builder.

Finding myself in the ministry, I was now in the back door, no longer on the pew. I was now becoming acquainted with men whom I only knew from a distance. Soon, the game plan was being played. Politics was no longer just in the White House, and I was expected to play. I was expected to conform. I was expected to look the other way. The only time I get phone calls from our District is when they want MONEY. No calls of encouragement. No calls to just say hello. Just give us your CASH.

There is so much more, but I knew our ideas about God were thwarted when I found out almost every adult woman in the last church we attended was on Anti-Depressants. I thought God was everything we needed?? What’s wrong?? The hair do, and dresses, and the smile meant nothing. The people are depressed, but are afraid to really say anything about it because we are supposed to be drinking from a well where you’ll never thirst again. Think about it; “Come on, raise those hands, praise Him, let God touch you so you can join our Prozac team.”

After all of these years, brother, I have found our method to not only be lacking, but we keep supporting lies, and this only adds to our dilemma. We look at a person who just “Spoke in Tongues”, telling them, “You got it”, after being coaxed by the altar boys under the spell of total emotion. We count people, this being our success, our power, who we are. The bigger the Church, the greater YOU are. It’s not long, the Mega Church tramples down all in its way, because Apostolics are looking for entertainment, not real life. We glorify our singers, we make our Preacher demi-gods, and forget about the lonely pastor who is working his fingers to the bone to keep the few he has.

We license men to preach the Gospel, but they are unwilling to pay any real price. They want it handed to them, the silver spoon, under the spell of another Pastor who has that large congregation. If you don’t believe me, ask one of our big churches how many men are sitting on their pews with licenses. I’m not just blowing off steam here. This is the
Truth! I know of 4 pastors recently (this year) who finally threw in the towel. These are men I know personally. They all had small works, and couldn’t handle the stress anymore. These Bible Colleges dish them out, but they won’t come to where the real need is because they are weak and afraid of real sacrifice.

Where are the MEN today?? Why are so many of our Churches young people waiting to get married?? Why can’t they hold out once they get married?? People seem to be afraid of starting families, and these people are in the Apostolic movement.

Well, you asked for it. This is just a small part of my life and the many reasons why I’ve questioned our motive and reason. It seems, and I think most would agree, we locked God into our BOX, and in turn, we lost Him! Our IDEA has failed. Our CONCEPT of God is not what it used to be. Our hearts are swayed by what MAN has made, not what GOD has made.

This is why I’m heading back to the Creek. I’m going back to my summer swimming hole, to catch fish, pick blackberries, and to feel the warm sun on my face. I lost something back there that was never meant to be lost. God made this Earth to shine with His glory, but we are too busy to notice because we have our head buried in a Book we can’t understand.

Sounds, my brother, that you are ready to come to know God as He really is, head to the creek He is waiting for you. Leave the faux and strike out for the true, ask for a clean slate, free of the doctrines of men, so that you may see Him as He really is, we must get disgusted with where we are before we can receive Him as He is.

[easter]

Ok I have done a study into...
IS HELL ETERNAL?
This is what I came up with in the scriptures...

Matthew 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate.For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction,and many enter through it.
Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life,and only few find it.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son,that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.

Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left,Depart from me,you are cursed,into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 Then they will go away to ETERNAL PUSNISHMENT,BUT THE RIGHTEOUS TO ETERNAL LIFE.

Revelation 20:10 And the Devil,who deceived them,was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur,where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

From scripture Hell,lake of fire is never spoken of as a refinery but rather a place that the spirit of man will go and be seperated from God for all eternity.No where in scripture is there any evidence that Hell is only temporary.Hell is an eternal punishment reserved for the wicked.
In John 11:25 Jesus states he is the resurrection and the life and according to 2 Thessalonians 1:9 The soul of man is cut off from God forever so this would be the second death but not annihilation as we think but to be annihilated from God for all eternity where there is no light(JESUS IS THE LIGHT) then these spirits in Hell are the same as dead.
That's my take on it.

[Raven]

Sorry Easter but that's far from a complete study into, is "Hell Eternal?" Dig a little deeper! Go back to the original languages and then make a thorough study.

Raven

[easter]

Originally Posted by Raven

Sorry Easter but that's far from a complete study into, is "Hell Eternal?" Dig a little deeper! Go back to the original languages and then make a thorough study.

Raven

Ok your right.I didn't send alot of time on researching hell.That is a place that I don't intend to find out first hand if it's real or eternal.However I understand that some really need to know if it's forever,for reason only known to themselves.
To take the approach to understanding if Hell is eternal I really don't see how a word study in the original language is going to clear the way of understanding a temporary hell.
I know to believe that hell is a temporary punishment is to believe in purgatory.I'd admit that purgatory in the face of a possible redemption out of hell would be a merciful Lord.I will tell you why....
Scenario; You have a young person who never commits to the Lord because they are to busy being a kid and exploring the world and it's possibilities.They are not wicked,they just don't commit to the Lord because in a kids mind death is far away and they die.
Then you take an old wicked person like Hitler,OK I don't see the Lord handing out the same judgement on both.SO I DON"T KNOW.
I did read up on purgatory out of a Catholic Bible and there is scripture to fit this.
Difference in beliefs on my part would be(IF) there is such a thing as purgatory then of course believing the spirit returning to God at physcial death then maybe a purgatory at that time,not at the end of age.According to the Catholics a person here can make intercession on behalf of a person in purgatory.
If this is true,wouldn't that be sad if we could pray someone out by making intercession and we didn't because we don't think it's possible.
I'm drawing a blank!!!!! I can see it both ways through scripture.How confusing.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by easter

Ok I have done a study into...
IS HELL ETERNAL?
This is what I came up with in the scriptures...

Matthew 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate.For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction,and many enter through it.
Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life,and only few find it.

This may mean that few truly do find the way of life in this life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son,that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Amen. And the Bible tells us that one day every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. One day every soul will believe and submit to Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.

The word “everlasting” in the Greek is “aionios”, meaning, “of the ages” or “ages long”. The Greek word isn’t limited to meaning strictly unending. Essentially these will be punished with a ruin of the ages and during that time they will be shut out from the presence of the Lord.

Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left,Depart from me,you are cursed,into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

One has to understand the term “eternal fire”. Again the Greek word for eternal is “aionios” and literally translates “of the ages”, “ages long”, or “age enduring”. The duration of this flame isn’t indicated. This fire could endure through this age and the Millennial age or any future age and come to an end at some unknown future time and not violate the words of this verse.

Matthew 25:46 Then they will go away to ETERNAL PUSNISHMENT,BUT THE RIGHTEOUS TO ETERNAL LIFE.

The key here is understanding the term, “everlasting punishment” (KJV). The term “everlasting” again is “aionios” meaning, “of the ages”, “ages long”, or “age enduring”. If viewed as the duration of punishment, as with the term “eternal fire”, “everlasting punishment” doesn’t have to be without end if it endures through untold or unknown ages. However, the word for “punishment” is most important here. The word for “punishment” is the Greek word “kolasis”. Kolasis essentially means to cut or prune, to discipline, to make to grow right, to correct, to punish. It has no connotation of torment, but rather of a corrective process by which the punished (pruned) is corrected. Combined with “aionios” the term “kolasis” forms the notion of a correction of the soul that endures through the ages. The duration of that punishment isn’t necessarily in view here, the results of that punishment is. For example, my father beat me with a belt once when I cursed him. Though the beating (punishment) only lasted a few moments, it’s results have been “everlasting” in my life. I’ll never curse my father again and I learned a very deep respect for authority. So in light of the Greek terminology used in this verse we can’t conclude that God inflicts endless torments on sinners, but rather an everlasting correction that endures through the ages.

Revelation 20:10 And the Devil,who deceived them,was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur,where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The term “forever and ever” denotes for “ages and ages” or for “the age of ages”. Again, the meaning is open ended and allows for the torment to be ended in eternity future. Another interesting note. These are punished “day and night”. We read that in the eternal state there shall be no night and that there is no need of the sun, for the Lamb is the light. By definition this condemnation can only endure until the consummation of the ages and the eternal age begins, because there isn’t any night in the eternal age.

From scripture Hell,lake of fire is never spoken of as a refinery but rather a place that the spirit of man will go and be seperated from God for all eternity.No where in scripture is there any evidence that Hell is only temporary.Hell is an eternal punishment reserved for the wicked.

You will note that the full name of the “lake of fire” is the “lake of fire and brimstone”. The interesting note here is the term “brimstone”. In the Greek this word is “theon”. It was used as a sacred incense throughout the Greco-Hellenist world on account of its powers of PURIFICATION. In fact I believe it was either Aristotle or Socrates who speaks of cups being cleansed with brimstone. So to the Greek mind, when one says, “lake of fire and brimstone”, they would understand it as meaning, “lake of fiery purification”.

In John 11:25 Jesus states he is the resurrection and the life and according to 2 Thessalonians 1:9 The soul of man is cut off from God forever so this would be the second death but not annihilation as we think but to be annihilated from God for all eternity where there is no light(JESUS IS THE LIGHT) then these spirits in Hell are the same as dead.
That's my take on it.

Again, the Greek term for “everlasting” is open ended. One surely suffers the ruin of the ages by rejecting Christ. However, the language allows for this to end upon the consummation of the ages.

Interestingly out of the six ancient schools of Christianity in the first and second centuries the doctrine of Apokatastasis was taught by four of them, and these were Greek speaking schools. Only two schools deviated from the universal teaching and those were strongly influenced by the Latin. One taught Annihilationism and the other taught endless torments. Of course the theological school that taught endless torments won the theological debate regarding Hell… and the Godhead; that school would be Rome.

It should also be noted that the “second death” may indeed be a euphemism for repentance. In repentance we die to self and live unto the Lord. Repentance is in a since a “first death”. If those in the lake of fire and brimstone suffer the “second death” could it be that this is speaking of the sinful and wicked being purified in God’s fearsome fires and brought to a place of absolute repentance and surrender?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by easter

Ok your right.I didn't send alot of time on researching hell.That is a place that I don't intend to find out first hand if it's real or eternal.However I understand that some really need to know if it's forever,for reason only known to themselves.
To take the approach to understanding if Hell is eternal I really don't see how a word study in the original language is going to clear the way of understanding a temporary hell.
I know to believe that hell is a temporary punishment is to believe in purgatory.I'd admit that purgatory in the face of a possible redemption out of hell would be a merciful Lord.I will tell you why....
Scenario; You have a young person who never commits to the Lord because they are to busy being a kid and exploring the world and it's possibilities.They are not wicked,they just don't commit to the Lord because in a kids mind death is far away and they die.
Then you take an old wicked person like Hitler,OK I don't see the Lord handing out the same judgement on both.SO I DON"T KNOW.
I did read up on purgatory out of a Catholic Bible and there is scripture to fit this.
Difference in beliefs on my part would be(IF) there is such a thing as purgatory then of course believing the spirit returning to God at physcial death then maybe a purgatory at that time,not at the end of age.According to the Catholics a person here can make intercession on behalf of a person in purgatory.
If this is true,wouldn't that be sad if we could pray someone out by making intercession and we didn't because we don't think it's possible.
I'm drawing a blank!!!!! I can see it both ways through scripture.How confusing.

God is just and merciful. God is justified in offering mercy to any man at any time predicated upon the Cross of Christ.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

There’s much to tell. My metamorphosis is simply the result of experience. Going back to my childhood, I lived in both worlds. For the first 10 years, I was enthralled with life. Our home was planted right next to a large creek, sometimes a river, where you would always find me. The place was a wonderland of nature and exploration. Alone, or with friends, my beginnings were born in God’s backyard. I would eat blackberries, catch fish, and swim in the hot summer sun. The memories are rich, and very real.

But I was soon transformed from this wonderful experience into utter darkness. I was upstairs in our home in bed, and I heard yelling downstairs. I slowly crept down the steps to find what I couldn’t believe. My father and mother were fighting, and my mother was so drunk she couldn’t get off the floor. My father told me, “I’m leaving, son”. I was in total shock. I begged him to take me with him, but to no avail. I watched him drive away, as my world came crashing to the ground, never even knowing there was a problem in our family.

This was the day I grew into a man before my time. The childhood of yesterday was lost upon the sea of confusion, fear, and loneliness. My parents divorced, my mother remarried, and I went on to experience a whole new world to help me cope with the pain. I started smoking weed at 11. Drugs became an everyday affair, until I was 18. I slept with so many girls, I can’t remember the number. My brother and sister were killed in a car accident when I was 17. This traumatized me, along with numerous other experiences. So, I joined the Marines right out high school in 1978 to get away from my friends and family. I border lined on hating my stepfather, as through my teen years when he was a drunk, he would beat my mother before my eyes.

After being in the Military, I came in contact with a man who was going to a small Home Missions work of Apostolic nature. I was searching for answers, and was ripe to listen to someone with something better. I was taught One God, Jesus Name baptism, Repentance, and speaking in tongues as the evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost. I had been a Catholic all my life, but felt the Church didn’t do a whole lot of good for my family, so hey, why not try something else! I did just about everything they told me to do.

When it came to receiving the Holy Ghost, I struggled. I would go to the altar, where I was surrounded by screaming and yelling and intense “coaching”. I cried, begged, and pleaded for God to fill me. Out of the corner of my eye, I knew the pastor was watching, waiting to hear that “sign”. I fasted, I prayed, I repented, but nothing. Finally, one day in my barracks I was alone. I knelt next to my bed and began my pleading. I’ll be honest here, because I know countless other people have done the same thing. I began to speak in tongues under my own accord. I did it. I uttered words that I knew would be acceptable to the pressure of the hearers.

So, I went to church, went to the altar like always, and, you guessed it, spoke in tongues and was now labeled “SAVED”. I was elated. I was happy. But, I never forgot this day in 1979.

I was married 1 year later to a girl from my hometown who I witnessed to. We had 4 children by the time I was 25. We are still married today 29 years later, and all but 1 of our children is still alive, with children of their own.

My first pastor was very strict. I followed his ideals for quite some time, but began to question his motive. I saw very strange actions that seemed to represent a controlling by fear. Obey them, submit yourselves, The Man of God, and Hell Fire, these were a very deep part of my initial experience. A few years later, he fell into adultery and lost the church and his family. To this day, the church there has struggled over this fall of our pastor. I was bewildered. Just like when I saw my father leave. How could this happen in the place where I was told, “Peace that passes all understanding is here”?

Little did I know, this was only the beginning of much more to come. I watched one divorce after another rip through our church. I soon heard of Clergy, Pastors, and other famous people in our movement being convicted of child molestation, homosexuality, and once the Internet was born, found that pornography was a mainstay and the big secret on our pews. My daughter had a girl from our church stay the night, where the girl told her she was being molested by her father, who was a Sunday School teacher. He went to prison for this after my daughter had testified, this putting a huge stress on our family.

My real eye opener though, was when I became a pastor. We built the church here from the ground up, in one of the toughest places in the Country. In fact, it is known, the Pacific Northwest is the most difficult area in the Nation to build a church. We came with great passion to help people and to do a work for God. I went through all levels of licensing, becoming Ordained. I’ve have studied the Scripture thoroughly, spending the last 30 years covering every aspect of the Bible, wanting to know the whole truth. I have read countless books on Religion, Holiness, history, the origins of our past, and have been in very heated debates. I also spent a good 5 years of my life, writing my own book, which was a best seller in Bro Enseys Apostolic Library Builder.

Finding myself in the ministry, I was now in the back door, no longer on the pew. I was now becoming acquainted with men whom I only knew from a distance. Soon, the game plan was being played. Politics was no longer just in the White House, and I was expected to play. I was expected to conform. I was expected to look the other way. The only time I get phone calls from our District is when they want MONEY. No calls of encouragement. No calls to just say hello. Just give us your CASH.

There is so much more, but I knew our ideas about God were thwarted when I found out almost every adult woman in the last church we attended was on Anti-Depressants. I thought God was everything we needed?? What’s wrong?? The hair do, and dresses, and the smile meant nothing. The people are depressed, but are afraid to really say anything about it because we are supposed to be drinking from a well where you’ll never thirst again. Think about it; “Come on, raise those hands, praise Him, let God touch you so you can join our Prozac team.”

After all of these years, brother, I have found our method to not only be lacking, but we keep supporting lies, and this only adds to our dilemma. We look at a person who just “Spoke in Tongues”, telling them, “You got it”, after being coaxed by the altar boys under the spell of total emotion. We count people, this being our success, our power, who we are. The bigger the Church, the greater YOU are. It’s not long, the Mega Church tramples down all in its way, because Apostolics are looking for entertainment, not real life. We glorify our singers, we make our Preacher demi-gods, and forget about the lonely pastor who is working his fingers to the bone to keep the few he has.

We license men to preach the Gospel, but they are unwilling to pay any real price. They want it handed to them, the silver spoon, under the spell of another Pastor who has that large congregation. If you don’t believe me, ask one of our big churches how many men are sitting on their pews with licenses. I’m not just blowing off steam here. This is the
Truth! I know of 4 pastors recently (this year) who finally threw in the towel. These are men I know personally. They all had small works, and couldn’t handle the stress anymore. These Bible Colleges dish them out, but they won’t come to where the real need is because they are weak and afraid of real sacrifice.

Where are the MEN today?? Why are so many of our Churches young people waiting to get married?? Why can’t they hold out once they get married?? People seem to be afraid of starting families, and these people are in the Apostolic movement.

Well, you asked for it. This is just a small part of my life and the many reasons why I’ve questioned our motive and reason. It seems, and I think most would agree, we locked God into our BOX, and in turn, we lost Him! Our IDEA has failed. Our CONCEPT of God is not what it used to be. Our hearts are swayed by what MAN has made, not what GOD has made.

This is why I’m heading back to the Creek. I’m going back to my summer swimming hole, to catch fish, pick blackberries, and to feel the warm sun on my face. I lost something back there that was never meant to be lost. God made this Earth to shine with His glory, but we are too busy to notice because we have our head buried in a Book we can’t understand.

Wow. You’d be amazed at how similar our stories are.

I’ve become very upset with “church” and “religion” as we practice it. The institutional church has unintentionally devastated my family and I’m afraid things aren’t going to end well. I don’t blame members or ministers in the institutional church personally; they’re for the most part fantastic people. However, the politics and the machine behind our organizations are merciless and though well meaning, often chew people up and spit them out. I’ve been fellowshipping some believers who meet in home based fellowships or what are commonly called “house churches”. Here the politics aren’t as fierce and deeper friendships are able to be cultivated. I don’t hate the traditional church. But I often wonder how my marriage would be today had I simply been given a blessing to follow the call of God that I was feeling.

[easter]

Matthew 7:13-14
MAN'S DAYS ARE FEW AND FULL OF TROUBLE
Unless one has Jesus they don't have anything in the end.
There is a feel good preacher on T.V and he's done pretty good about writing books on how to find happiness in this life.The times we are in people need to hear about storing up their treasures in Heaven not here on this earth.
Of course the finding of life could = finding Jesus but I'm pretty sure this verse means what it says.Besides this if you don't find life(JESUS)in this life broad is the way to hell