Have You Been to WWPF Lately?

[CC1]

Pressing The Iron,

I know exactly what you are talking about however I have a little different take on it. I also worked with a woman who expressed great disappointment at the exUPC church I attended having moved away from the strict legalistic corporate standards,

Of course she had no interest or intention of ever adhering to them herself just as you mentioned.

I don't think it is so much that these folks are wanting UPC / conservative folks to maintain their dress code as a safety net so they have a place to go if they ever decide to as much as it is more of a quaint respect and admiration for folks who will go to such lengths to "seperate" themselves from society and culture.

Just as I respect some of the more radical Roman Catholics who dedicate their lives to God in monastaries my respect for them does not translate into believing they are doing something neccessary or even biblicaly correct.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by CC1

Pressing The Iron,

I know exactly what you are talking about however I have a little different take on it. I also worked with a woman who expressed great disappointment at the exUPC church I attended having moved away from the strict legalistic corporate standards,

Of course she had no interest or intention of ever adhering to them herself just as you mentioned.

I don't think it is so much that these folks are wanting UPC / conservative folks to maintain their dress code as a safety net so they have a place to go if they ever decide to as much as it is more of a quaint respect and admiration for folks who will go to such lengths to "seperate" themselves from society and culture.

Just as I respect some of the more radical Roman Catholics who dedicate their lives to God in monastaries my respect for them does not translate into believing they are doing something neccessary or even biblicaly correct.

I agree with you, in part.

I agree that some things are not Biblically mandated, but I think that some things are necessary, in the way of convictions, for some people.

They have to set a barrier in their lives in order NOT to go back into what they were before. Some things they must lay down, forever, and never look back.

On the point of some not wanting to be committed, but wanting a place to go if they ever decided to commit - I still feel the same way. It was an impression I received from real people in my life. I knew it was their frame of mind. So for some, perhaps not. For others, yes, they want a point to reach when they are looking for an out.

We want to come together as "Christians/Apostolics", but we all and on various points, have a problem allowing each person, individually, to stand where they feel is comfortable or important for their life or walk. Some stand as a group, and some in a group as individuals. If we can get past our stubborn introspection and find common ground.....

Unfortunately, I see, as history bears out, there will always remain factions - fighting and disagreement. As best we can, we must try to take the high road and stay out of issues that do not involve our particular lives.

God is not the author of confusion. At least we can agree on that.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by CC1

Barb,

My heart grows heavy when I read an account like the one you posted here. I know that your godsister is a good woman who loves the Lord with all of her heart. However the teaching that causes people to think that the world gives a flip whether the UPC uses or has TV's is just so far off base it is wearying.

Not only is it the Oneness stand and baptism in Jesus name that should make UPC and like folks "stand apart" it should be the love of Christ and fruit of the Spirit in our lives.

Amen...

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I wouldn't have weighed in on this discussion, but I would like to share something on this topic of television.

My oldest sister was greatly disappointed when we "finally" purchased a television and watched some videos. She didn't want to commit her life to living the way we did, but she wanted someone to do it.

As strange as it may seem, there are people that don't want to commit to greater things, but they want it to be there for them as a hope, if they ever decide they want to be serious about living for God.

I saw the same thing when I sold radio commercials. The DJ's joked with me about their heathen music, but they didn't want me to listen to their music. They wanted me to remain where I stood.

Some people want to know, that if they could and wanted to, there is a way and a place to walk away from the mainstream.

Just my thoughts.

So, no Barb, I don't totally agree with your post, nor CC1's. Love you both!

Originally Posted by CC1

Pressing The Iron,

I know exactly what you are talking about however I have a little different take on it. I also worked with a woman who expressed great disappointment at the exUPC church I attended having moved away from the strict legalistic corporate standards,

Of course she had no interest or intention of ever adhering to them herself just as you mentioned.

I don't think it is so much that these folks are wanting UPC / conservative folks to maintain their dress code as a safety net so they have a place to go if they ever decide to as much as it is more of a quaint respect and admiration for folks who will go to such lengths to "seperate" themselves from society and culture.

Just as I respect some of the more radical Roman Catholics who dedicate their lives to God in monastaries my respect for them does not translate into believing they are doing something neccessary or even biblicaly correct.

While I know you are both right, it is still a sad commentary to me that people's idea of righteous living may be based on what we do/don't do, how we look/don't look, rather than on the inward change that has brought about an outward separation.

How's that for a run-on sentence?!

But seriously, how I look is not who I am...I am a child of God because of what HE did.

Having a television and watching a video should not define us...it should be our belief and obedience to the Gospel of Christ.

Just my humble opinon...forgive the soapbox I'm on...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Barb

While I know you are both right, it is still a sad commentary to me that people's idea of righteous living may be based on what we do/don't do, how we look/don't look, rather than on the inward change that has brought about an outward separation.

How's that for a run-on sentence?!

But seriously, how I look is not who I am...I am a child of God because of what HE did.

Having a television and watching a video should not define us...it should be our belief and obedience to the Gospel of Christ.

Just my humble opinon...forgive the soapbox I'm on...

How do we weigh out our arguments for or against what we do/don't do, how we look/don't look and our degree of separation when the Word says, "We are epistles read and seen of all men."?

Of course anything we are or become starts in our heart. Whatever is in our heart is going to show in our actions, behaviour, communication, and dress.

We can't stop at the inward, IMO, and dismiss the outward.

The outward will always be an individual choice. That choice will lead that person to a group that upholds that choice.

My only point in the choice is that tolerance for choices and "love" emanating must be who we are.

And, Barb, if love had ruled the day in the hearts of all men, the split of choices would not be a factor or a conversation. Standards would not be a conversation. No one cares what someone's personal preferences are, in any group, as long as "love shows forth to "good works".

I know there are people in every faction that carry "love". It's important to them. So, as "birds of a feather, flock together", we associate ourselves, in our groups with those people that clearly define who we are and what we believe to be God's directive - "love for one another".

We can't throw every group down the drain for some, even leaders who present the wrong view of God's directive.

We are in a situation, right now, and the Lord clearly showed me what my mind should be on the situation. A distinct divide and a correlation, at the same time, between Psalm 74 and 84. The first - utter disregard for the things of God, destruction by man's carnal desires. The latter - "How amiable are they tabernacles, O Lord of hosts!"

The church is still a beautiful thing no matter what man can and will make it!

So, we remain a satisfied doorkeeper - it's better than living in the tent of wickedness.

Just my thoughts......

I thank you for your thoughts, Barb, as well as CC1 - it's beginning to be a very interesting and deep conversation. Loving that!

God bless!

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

How do we weigh out our arguments for or against what we do/don't do, how we look/don't look and our degree of separation when the Word says, "We are epistles read and seen of all men."?

Of course anything we are or become starts in our heart. Whatever is in our heart is going to show in our actions, behaviour, communication, and dress.

We can't stop at the inward, IMO, and dismiss the outward.

The outward will always be an individual choice. That choice will lead that person to a group that upholds that choice.

My only point in the choice is that tolerance for choices and "love" emanating must be who we are.

And, Barb, if love had ruled the day in the hearts of all men, the split of choices would not be a factor or a conversation. Standards would not be a conversation. No one cares what someone's personal preferences are, in any group, as long as "love shows forth to "good works".

I know there are people in every faction that carry "love". It's important to them. So, as "birds of a feather, flock together", we associate ourselves, in our groups with those people that clearly define who we are and what we believe to be God's directive - "love for one another".

We can't throw every group down the drain for some, even leaders who present the wrong view of God's directive.

We are in a situation, right now, and the Lord clearly showed me what my mind should be on the situation. A distinct divide and a correlation, at the same time, between Psalm 74 and 84. The first - utter disregard for the things of God, destruction by man's carnal desires. The latter - "How amiable are they tabernacles, O Lord of hosts!"

The church is still a beautiful thing no matter what man can and will make it!

So, we remain a satisfied doorkeeper - it's better than living in the tent of wickedness.

Just my thoughts......

I thank you for your thoughts, Barb, as well as CC1 - it's beginning to be a very interesting and deep conversation. Loving that!

God bless!

I don't know, Pressing-On...I just don't know...

While it is true that our lives are read of all men, the outside can be deceiving.

Jesus and the brethren walked up on a tree that from a distance gave an illusion of something it wasn't...it had leaves, covering, but no fruit.

Prayerfully you and CC1 know I am not dismissing the outward, however, I just cannot lay it all on that.

God sees the heart and knows...we may hide from others, but He really knows, even more than we do what our heart is all about.

Those who would cast others to yon lower regions for watching TV...mercy, it boggles my little pea brain as to how they can do it. Have a conviction...certainly, but it would seem that Sanctified folk could show some love and compassion for those who haven't arrived at their particular level of understanding.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Barb

I don't know, Pressing-On...I just don't know...

While it is true that our lives are read of all men, the outside can be deceiving.

Jesus and the brethren walked up on a tree that from a distance gave an illusion of something it wasn't...it had leaves, covering, but no fruit.

Prayerfully you and CC1 know I am not dismissing the outward, however, I just cannot lay it all on that.

God sees the heart and knows...we may hide from others, but He really knows, even more than we do what our heart is all about.

Those who would cast others to yon lower regions for watching TV...mercy, it boggles my little pea brain as to how they can do it. Have a conviction...certainly, but it would seem that Sanctified folk could show some love and compassion for those who haven't arrived at their particular level of understanding.

Right, Barb. That was my point - love and compassion.

If that was the riding factor no one would start threads or care one way or the other.

Hopefully we can all learn and do better.

Well, I have errands to run. Have a good day. Thanks for your contributions. I always enjoy them!

[Tim Rutledge]

PtL Everybody.. Some awesome posts. I appreciate the obvious sincerity. My hope is in the Lords mercy, and only by His grace will any of us make it.

[Sam]

Well, we'll see what happens in November.

[theoldpaths]

Paul wrote of some who were enemies of the cross of Christ - he didn't say they were enemies of Christ, but enemies of the CROSS of Christ.

Jesus said, if any man will follow me, let him DENY HIMSELF and take up his cross daily and follow him.

Paul said, I die daily.

Paul understood that the flesh and the Spirit war against each other and that to give the Spirit the upper hand, one had to die daily and to get renewed in the Holy Ghost and to walk in the Spirit so that one would NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Paul said, they that are Christ's, they that belong to him, true Christians, have crucified their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof. If you want to know a true christian, one that belongs to him, it is those who have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts thereof and walk in the Spirit.

You shall know them by their fruit, either they will manifest the fruit of the Spirit or the works of the flesh.

Now, the early Catholics were in the faith, but they departed from the faith - they gave heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Why were they not able to overcome them? The scriptures give us a clue...

The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own LUSTS shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears and shall turn their ears away from the truth and shall be turned unto fables.

They started in the truth and were able to endure sound doctrine for a while, but eventually they could no longer endure sound doctrine. Why is that? They did not crucify their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof. Apparently they thought that they could live for God without crucifying their flesh. They thought they could live for God AND satisfy their flesh with the affections and lusts.

Now living that way in a true apostolic church will cause one to repent over and over again, but eventually, they will grow tired of that and so after their own LUSTS shall they depart from the faith and get their own teachers who will tickle their ears. They will turn their ears from the truth and shall be turned unto fables - fiction - the inventions of men.

Why do people WANT to watch TV? Why is it? Is it not to satisfy the lusts of the flesh and the lust of the eye? Why is it that some cannot resist the temptation to fulfill the lust of the flesh and eye and to watch tv while others have no problem with it? Is it because that some deny themselves and take up their cross daily and crucify their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof? What is significant about the cross? That is where Jesus' flesh was crucified.

Those who will not deny themselves daily and take up their cross and crucify their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof will continue to find themselves fulfilling the affection and lust of their flesh and will find themselves constantly repenting; especially in a true apostolic church that preaches and teaches sound doctrine. Eventually, they will repent and line up, or they will grow tired and look for a church with a pastor who will preach/teach something that is more to their liking - the liking of the lusts and affections of their flesh that is.

They will begin to make excuses and to JUSTIFY their actions. Interesting how they compare tv to the internet, while the other group that has no problems not watching tv can use the internet with no problem and not need tv; however they can not say the same.

The interesting thing when the kingdom of Israel split was that when Jeroboam rebelled against the God-given authority of Reheboam, Jeroboam put away the Levites out of Israel. He disfellowshipped them. He put away, God's ordained priesthood and came up with his own way. But everyone whose heart sought after God, left Israel and went to Judah and Jerusalem. When Jeroboam realized that during the time of worship,
Israel might go back to Jerusalem, he created a substitute and told them it was too much for them to go to Jerusalem - it was TOO HARD for them.

Kinda reminds me of speaking evil of the way of truth.