Question about Acts 2:38: What about the martyrs?

[Aquila]

I believe that it is safe to say that if one wishes to ensure that they are saved, they should obey Acts 2:38. Those Christians that haven't obeyed Acts 2:38, but are walking in all the light that they know, shouldn't be immediately condemned. Rather, we should keep in mind that it is entirely God's prerogative as to He will save them or not.

I break it down like this:

Salvation?

1.) Apostolics? Yes.
2.) Other "Christians"? Maybe.
3.) Those who resisted Apostolic truth? Most likely not.
4.) Non-Christians? No.

[mfblume]

Guys, do what Peter said and preach acts 2:38 and don't assume anything else about those who refuse. Leave it to God. There's nothing wrong with saying we don't know what God will do with them. Leave it alone and don't judge it either way.

[mfblume]

The more I think of it the more I really believe those who feel some will be saved outside Acts 2:38 do so upon assumption. Nothing is wrong with wishful thinking. Hope all things. After all, love hopes all things.

However, we cannot make foundational dogmatic statements to that effect.

It's like the belief that God's Spirit indwells people before the baptism of the Holy Ghost, as though they're two different experiences. When Acts 2 is cited where people were filled with he Spirit and spoke in tongues, some say, "Well, they got both the general indwelling every believer gets at the same time they were Spirit baptized." In other words, they cannot find a single actual statement that says the Spirit of God indwells you before the baptism of the Holy Ghost is experienced. So, it all really boils down to supposition and wishful thinking that turns into foundational doctrine. It's unfounded foundational doctrine.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The more I think of it the more I really believe those who feel some will be saved outside Acts 2:38 do so upon assumption. Nothing is wrong with wishful thinking. Hope all things. After all, love hopes all things.
However, we cannot make foundational dogmatic statements to that effect.
It's like the belief that God's Spirit indwells people before the baptism of the Holy Ghost, as though they're two different experiences. When Acts 2 is cited where people were filled with he Spirit and spoke in tongues, some say, "Well, they got both the general indwelling every believer gets at the same time they were Spirit baptized." In other words, they cannot find a single actual statement that says the Spirit of God indwells you before the baptism of the Holy Ghost is experienced. So, it all really boils down to supposition and wishful thinking that turns into foundational doctrine. It's unfounded foundational doctrine.

Amen. Once they're dead, it's out of our hands.

PREACH TO THE LIVING!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Amen. Once they're dead, it's out of our hands.

PREACH TO THE LIVING!

Right, and preach the work of the cross, and end it off with Acts 2:38.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Agreed, as I have agreed throughout this post. Is this some mystery?



We don't have to outthink God. God can make a way for anything. Naaman baptized himself without Elisha being present (see LXX version of 2 Kings 5:14). The witness to his obedience to the prophet was not just him being wet, but by the miracle he received after he obeyed.

Is it any different today?

Imagine an abused wife and children who will be killed by the husband if they dare attend a church? Imagine she's secretly reading her Bible and realizes her and her children need to be baptized in the name of Jesus. Suppose she risks all their lives to get to a church that will baptize that way, or suppose she immerses herself and her children in secret?

God is going to withhold remission of sins from her? God won't recognize her faith as legit? He won't give her the Holy Spirit? He keeps them out of the Kingdom of God because she wasn't baptized by another person, and/or some saint wasn't present to witness it?

I don't think so.

Testimonies from all over the world abound of people who, having no one to baptize them, baptized themselves. They were stuck, without an option. Did they outthink God, or did God make a way through the extreme circumstances, for them to find water, and be immersed?

This amazes me. What testimonies from around the world? And, HOW DO YOU KNOW GOD'S OPINION OF THEIR SITUATION?

Yes, I think you are (inadvertently) trying to outthink God.

Salvation is conformity to the doctrine of Christ, as taught by His apostles. This view of that doctrine, putting in the category of "mere technicalities", is wrong. It makes salvation a thing independent of apostolic doctrine, independent of a BIBLICAL partaking of the Divine Nature, an "ought to but don't necessarily have to" thing.

Trying to find ways for people to be saved apart from the Bible Way doesn't even make logical sense, to be honest. Salvation is a Bible concept. Apart from the Bible there is no idea of needing to be saved, from what we should be saved, or what salvation even is or consists of. Therefore, looking for ways to be saved outside the Bible's direct teaching implies the Bible is not complete, or worse is really not even needed.

But God is smarter than us. He has told us EVERYTHING WE NEED TO KNOW in order to be saved. Anything else beyond what He has said is mere human philosophy and vain attempts at worldly "wisdom", imo.

Therefore, there simply is no way but the Bible Way.

[Esaias]

Might as well speculate on the salvation of Martians from Galaxy Nine. One would have the same scriptural certainty (actually more, if you think about it. Martians aren't mentioned at all, but humans are...)

[Disciple4life]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Might as well speculate on the salvation of Martians from Galaxy Nine. One would have the same scriptural certainty (actually more, if you think about it. Martians aren't mentioned at all, but humans are...)

Ha! HA!! HAA!!! LOL I love it when people can throw a little science fiction into a debate! Actually are we talking about religious fiction?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Guys, do what Peter said and preach acts 2:38 and don't assume anything else about those who refuse. Leave it to God. There's nothing wrong with saying we don't know what God will do with them. Leave it alone and don't judge it either way.

I can respect that.

[Aquila]

We keep ranting over rather a believer has obeyed Acts 2:38 or not.

It's my understanding that Acts 2:38 contains the following spiritual realities:

1.) Repentance/faith unto justification.
2.) Baptism in Jesus name unto identification.
3.) Spirit baptism unto regeneration.

Have these believers sincerely repented of their sins? If "yes", they are justified. If "no", then they are not.

Have these believers been water baptized in Jesus name? If "yes", they have been identified with Christ through water baptism. If "no", they have not been identified with Christ through water baptism.

Have these believers been filled with the Spirit? If "yes, they have experienced regeneration. If "no", they have not and are unregenerate.

Now, we often demand that "obedience" to Acts 2:38 look exactly like what the UPCI requires that it look like. This is folly in my opinion. Let's assume that every one of these martyrs sincerely repented of their sins, they are justified. This means that they have imputed righteousness and God is just in saving them.

Let's say that they weren't baptized in Jesus name, as a result they are not identified with Christ through baptism. Have they been identified with Christ in any other manner? Was not their willingness to die for Jesus identification with Him? Might God very well count their being identified with Christ in their martyrdom as being figuratively "baptized" into Christ's suffering? How could it not?

Now,... we honestly can't say if they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, perhaps they had experienced trembling, stammering lips and weeping while in prayer, visions, etc. in their devotional lives. Just because they didn't know to "speak out" the "tongues" (or we never heard them speak in tongues personally) it doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit wasn't present and thereby bringing regeneration.

So ultimately, these martyrs might very well stand justified, identified, and regenerated; which is exactly what Acts 2:38 is truly about (the spiritual realities behind the verse). So it is best to leave it in the hands of God Almighty and actually pray that God have mercy on both them and their living families.