Proof Of Soul Sleep

[Scott Hutchinson]

Sure souls sleep,I see this in church,when the Pastor goes into overtime,or if somebody has worked the night shift,and then goes to sunday school.

[easter]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

Sure souls sleep,I see this in church,when the Pastor goes into overtime,or if somebody has worked the night shift,and then goes to sunday school.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Does not matter? At best it reveals a lack of understanding. At worst it denies the gospel "good news" of Yeshua Messiah.

The good news is that the dead will rise! Not just bodies. THE DEAD THEMSELVES.

But you have to say Paul was speaking pipe dreams when he said he would be absent from the body and present with the Lord at death. ALL THE WORD must work together without excluding that one.

[DerechHashem]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But you have to say Paul was speaking pipe dreams when he said he would be absent from the body and present with the Lord at death. ALL THE WORD must work together without excluding that one.

When we die, are we immediately at home with the Lord?

No.

2Co 5:6-8

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To be absent from the body is death.

While sleeping in the grave, we will not be conscious of the passage of time.

Therefore, when we are resurrected it will seem as though it were the very next instant.

The context refers to an intermediary, naked state.

2Co 5:1-4

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

This is death, which separates our earthly body from our heavenly body.

Compare Job 1:21

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

In other texts, Paul plainly shows that the transition is not actually at death.

1Co 15:51-53

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

[DerechHashem]

Originally Posted by easter

yeah well this still don't tell me who it is that God brings with him.
Do you know who it is that god brings with him?

Read it again, THE RESURRECTED! At his coming he raises the dead and brings them back to the Father then after the 1000 years those saints partake in the judgment of the resurrected wicked.

[DerechHashem]

Originally Posted by easter

Whatever

Onah': A night and a day are an 'onah and the portion of an 'onah is as the whole of it.

The day, reckoning from the night, reckoning yo sun-rise, were each divided into 12 equal parts, called the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc., hours. Example:

3rd hour (9:00)
6th hour (12:00)
9th hour (3:00)

The Jews measured time by breaking the day into 12 hours twice, with an additional 4 watches in each 12 hour period. The new day in Jewish time began at sunset approx. 6 PM. and the morning began at sun up approx. 6 AM.

Every day (and every night) is divided into 12 "variable" ("זמניות") hours, no matter what season it occurs in; the duration of the hour is therefore dependent on the yearly season (Sanh. 38b). Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel follow this system to the present day.

2007 Encyclopedia Judaica

From the remotest time to the present the Israelites have computed the day (yôm) from sunset to sunset, or rather from sunset to the appearance of the first three stars which marked the beginning of a new day [Cf. Lev. 23:32; II Esd. (Nehem.) 4:21; etc.]. Before the Babylonian Exile the time between sunrise and sunset was divided into "morning", "midday", and "evening" (Psalm 54:18; Hebrew 55:17); but during the stay in Babylon the Hebrews adopted the division into twelve hours (Cf. John 11:9), whose duration varied with the length of the day. On an average, the first hour corresponded to about 6 a.m.; the third hour to 9 a.m.; the end of the sixth to noon; while at the eleventh the day was near its close. Earlier than this division of the day by hours was that of the night into three watches: the first till midnight; the second or middle watch (cock-crow) till 3 a.m.; and the third or morning watch till about 6 a.m.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03166a.htm

There it is.

[DerechHashem]

Originally Posted by easter

Whatever

Why the attitude?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by DerechHashem

When we die, are we immediately at home with the Lord?

No.

2Co 5:6-8

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To be absent from the body is death.

While sleeping in the grave, we will not be conscious of the passage of time.

Paul said that we are absent from the body to be present with the Lord. How can that speak about soul sleep? Soul sleep teaches that we are asleep in the grave until the Lord comes, does it not? If not, then forgive me for getting it wrong. And if we are asleep in the body in the grave until the Lord comes, then there is never a time when we are absent from the body.

Therefore, when we are resurrected it will seem as though it were the very next instant.

The context refers to an intermediary, naked state.

2Co 5:1-4

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

This is death, which separates our earthly body from our heavenly body.

Separates earthly body from heavenly body? Are you saying the heavenly body and earthly body are together until death? Please explain. 2 Cor 5 is speaking about the earthly body dying and then replaced by a heavenly body later. The interim period is when we die today and leave our bodies and our souls and spirits are naked, since we have no heavenly body until the resurrection when the earthly is changed into a heavenly (See 1 Cor 15:51).

At any rate, you seem to disagree with Michael the Disciple, since he said Paul merely WISHED (implying it would never actually happen) to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, for he knew that if Paul was speaking of actualities, then souls sleep is not possible.

Compare Job 1:21

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Naked from our mother's womb is not saying the same thing as being naked when death occurs and we leave our bodies awaiting a heavenly body. Job was speaking about our physical bodies being without anything of this world when we are born, as though earthly belongings are merely temporal. he was speaking about his earthly possessions, and not his actual soul and spirit being naked.

In other texts, Paul plainly shows that the transition is not actually at death.

1Co 15:51-53

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The body alone sleeps in this context. Putting this together with 2 Cor 5, the body sleeps while the soul and spirit depart to be with the Lord.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Does not matter? At best it reveals a lack of understanding.

Sounds like the knowledge of how many DNA elements are in a single cell in our eyeballs. So??? How does this help us serve God better in the Kingdom? It's so easy to get off on rabbit trails that do not affect our Christianity in this life now. And so many spend their time on such issues that are irrelevant to the Kingdom. With all the bible teaches about leading of the Spirit and subduing kingdoms in the Spirit, time should be spent in those issues. Oh, but wait! The kingdom is really VISIBLE and actually does not come until the millennium. Ahhh... so we CAN waste precious time and study.

[easter]

Originally Posted by DerechHashem

When we die, are we immediately at home with the Lord?

No.

2Co 5:6-8

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To be absent from the body is death.

While sleeping in the grave, we will not be conscious of the passage of time.

Therefore, when we are resurrected it will seem as though it were the very next instant.

The context refers to an intermediary, naked state.

2Co 5:1-4

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

This is death, which separates our earthly body from our heavenly body.

Compare Job 1:21

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

In other texts, Paul plainly shows that the transition is not actually at death.

1Co 15:51-53

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Absent from the body,present with the Lord.
This is a simple statement made by Paul.
Absent from the body does mean...
We have left this earthly tent(Physical Body)
Present with the Lord means....
Well,hmmm means present with the Lord(pretty clear statement here if you throw a little wisdom in with the knowledge of the word.
1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you,brothers,that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
(THIS IS SIMPLE ALSO;THIS IS EXPLAINING WHY THE DEAD IN CHRIST ON THAT DAY OF THE CATCHING AWAY WILL COME BACK WITH THE LORD AND WILL RECEIVE A GLORIFIED BODY!
BY THE WAY MICHAEL THAT"S THE POINT OF THE RESSURECTION)!
1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen,I tell you a mystery;We will not all sleep(DIE PHYSCIALLY)but we will all be changed(SELF EXPLANTORY HERE;YOU GET A GLORIFIED BODY ON THE DAY OF THE CATCHING AWAY)
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a flash(CATCHING AWAY)in the twinkling of an eye,at the last trumpet.For the trumpet will sound,and the dead will be raised imperishable,and we will be changed.(NOW FOR THE ONES THAT BELIEVE IN SOUL-SLEEP TAKE THIS VERSE AS THEY WILL AWAKEN OUT OF THE GRAVE.NOT SO FRIEND,THE PHYSCIAL BODY DIES AND IS PLANTED LIKE A SEED>WHEN GOD COMES BACK HE WILL BRING THE DEAD IN CHRIST WITH HIM AND THE PLANTED SEED WILL BECOME THE GLORIFIED BODY.