Tulsa Report Day 2

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

With all due respect, jrLA, you weren't there to feel the Spirit of God or the kindness these men operated with. The guideline was laid down in the very beginning with an open "If your here to attack the UPC you might as well leave now" expression.

EVERYONE I've spoken to were (a) relieved that it was NOT allowed to be a 'bash UPC' meeting and (b) blessed by the 'no pressure to break ties' atmosphere that was there.

Those are great men and, trust me, I know each of the coordinators personally and they are well able to speak exactly what they feel and believe... even if it hurts you to hear it. They had a great spirit and I'm glad they conducted themselves with more dignity than some of the forum posters have shown towards their efforts.

In closing, I've watched you and seen your postings. I genuinely think you're a sincere individual. I also think that you would have found a kindred sincerity there. Don't believe everything you hear on these forums!

But don't you believe by their very NEED to start a MORE Apostolic way is anti-UPC? No, it's not actually saying we think they are terrible, but it DOES say we don't agree with them so we want a BETTER way and we are disassociating ourselves from them.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ChicagoPastor

So it was SOOOOOOOOOO good that you just can't get yourself to join yet?
IF this movement has as you put it, the fingerprints of God all over it why the delay?
Still doubting? Still not convinced?
I think if you saw the finger prints of God all over something, one wouldn't hesitate to join.

Perhaps, our new friend Poc is waiting till Branson to watch the dress code at Silver Dollar City!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Rev., I'll set aside the implication that the "other" churches in the UPC condone and promote homosexuality... No doudt that is not true, but some of the other things you mentioned, such as;

tasting alcohol, having a less rigid view regarding baptismal regeneration, and a tolerance of the "Light Doctrine". How does this new group prevent these things from happening there? And specificly, are these forbidden views/actions in the WPF?

I was thinking the same thing about the shacking up thing. I think and hope he meant girls in his church. And how this is not considered sin in any type of church is beyond me.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

But don't you believe by their very NEED to start a MORE Apostolic way is anti-UPC? No, it's not actually saying we think they are terrible, but it DOES say we don't agree with them so we want a BETTER way and we are disassociating ourselves from them.

Yep, that's the message they are sending loud and clear.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

But don't you believe by their very NEED to start a MORE Apostolic way is anti-UPC? No, it's not actually saying we think they are terrible, but it DOES say we don't agree with them so we want a BETTER way and we are disassociating ourselves from them.

Sadly, I agree.

The very words of the preamble attest to this...

[ChicagoPastor]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.

Bro. I feel your sincerity and your concern in the above post....had Tulsa 6 talked about all these things maybe I'd have a different opinion, but what caused this split was a simple resolution that allows for TV advertising. That was the 'big issue', that's what got everyone all stirred up.

I too have preached for a few of these men. The ones I preached for (all on the East Coast) I know are good, Godly men. I am still surprised that resolution #4 meant so much to them that they have become leaders of this new movement.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Barb

Sadly, I agree.

The very words of the preamble attest to this...

Of course it does. People are people. You can't divide up churches and families and keep a "good spirit" about it. I have no doubt in my mind the services are great in Tulsa and the words are good, but just like any other meeting.....those feeling can be fleeting.

In time will this all settle down, sure it will and everyone will go their own ways. Will some be the better for it, probably. Will some not be, possibly.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by ChicagoPastor

Bro. I feel your sincerity and your concern in the above post....had Tulsa 6 talked about all these things maybe I'd have a different opinion, but what caused this split was a simple resolution that allows for TV advertising. That was the 'big issue', that's what got everyone all stirred up.

I too have preached for a few of these men. The ones I preached for (all on the East Coast) I know are good, Godly men. I am still surprised that resolution #4 meant so much to them that they have become leaders of this new movement.

It was just the last domino.

[StillStanding]

The Tulsa leadership would have been fools not to take the high road! I am not surprised at all that the facade of a kind and sweet spirit was initially put forth.

The truth is that they drew first blood by mis-using the UPCI mailing list trying to cause maximum damage to it. The mailing about the Tulsa event to the UPCI list of preachers was not congruent to the vision and best interests of the UPCI.

After the first strike, they now act like they are innocent and sweet! They now take the high road. They hope that if there is any reaction from the UPCI, they will look like victims instead of the predators. The sad part is that the gullible will actually fall for this act!

As others have said, time will tell! Will the lambs skin come off and reveal the wolf?

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

But don't you believe by their very NEED to start a MORE Apostolic way is anti-UPC? No, it's not actually saying we think they are terrible, but it DOES say we don't agree with them so we want a BETTER way and we are disassociating ourselves from them.

Renda,

I am by no means a spokesman or apologist for the WWPF, though I am acquainted with some of the men involved, and have friends going that way.

But I do think I have some understanding of their thinking.

I am sure there are men involved whose motives and intents aren't 100% pristine. My knowledge of human nature tells me that.

But there has been a feeling shared by many that the UPC is drifting to the left. I think it probably is myself. In fact, there really is no denying that. The questions are, how far will it drift, and how fast? And how is this drift going to affect me and my local fellowship?

Some of the men putting this thing together live in places where the things they deal with at district events is a far cry from what I see. And if I were in those locations, I might have a different point of view than I do now.

The concern expressed by many going Tulsa way is direction. Where are the changes the UPC is undergoing leading? Will the UPC my kids see in 20 years be something I would want them being connected to?

Obviously, we see things very differently regarding these matters, but I share some of the concerns of the Tulsa brethren. It just happens that I am in a rather isolated and extremely conservative area, and our people aren't much affected by the goings on in more "progressive" venues.