You Can Fake It All

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by ILG

It is easy to fake "salvation" as the UPC defines it.

Repentance is easy to fake. Just go to the altar and look sorrowful.

Baptism. Just do it.

Tongues? I have heard lots of fake tongues in my life. Just sound like everybody else.

What many consider proof of God in your life, standards, are easy to fake, just follow the list.

Who has motive to fake salvation? All those who are being or have been pressured by wives, mothers, husbands, fathers, kids and friends to "get saved".

In a culture that greatly pressures people to get "saved" or go to hell and constantly measures who is "in" and who is "out", there is great pressure on people to "get saved" to get people off their back. They might not even know they are faking because they don't even know what the real experience is. Since this formula is so traditional and passed down from generation to generation to "be saved" there are likely a great many in the UPC and other apostolic churches that don't have a clue what true salvation is, they are just following the formula. The same thing is true in all churches but many other churches don't constantly measure who is "in" and who is "out".

The UPC taught me they were different. But they are not. Some in the UPC have faith and some do not. There is no formula for salvation to prove to another you are saved, no way to say "You are in and you are out".

Yeah..it's about the UPC. the blurb about "other churches" is a minor, side note.

You know, I repeat this, The problem was never about talking about the UPC. The Problem is it is incessant picking, nit picking, criticism on and on and on. Topic after Topic. Post after Post. It's built up over the years.

It's gotten pretty old

[ILG]

Prax, for the record, I am not reading your posts. You are so full of venom towards people who just want to discuss ideas that you can't see the forest for the trees.

I get that you think it's old. So don't read it. But you don't want to just not read it, you want to smash out my right to post. So I am going to skip all your posts because it's simply not healthy for me to read all that bashing about me, personally. And, I might add, I say a few things about the UPC but you bash ME. I won't read it.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

There's a LOT of that on Apostolic Friends Forum too..

Prax... LOL. If you don't like the discussion on this thread, don't come back and read it... Don't be like a little child, and sit in here and whine and whine until you get your way. Go post on your own thread you created to mock the other thread with the similar name.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by ILG

So "in" and "out"......
In the Westboro Baptist church, you must picket with a God Hates Fags sign to be "in".
In the quiverful movement you must not use birth control to be "in".
In the prosperity movement, you must believe that it is God's will for everyone to prosper financially to be "in" and you must be willing to "speak it".
In the New Thought Movement, you must believe in the metaphysical interpretation of the Bible to be "in".

Here are a few churches that use a yardstick that they believe is the "right" yardstick to measure whether people are in or out. I find there are two types of yardsticks and one is used to measure whether you are a first rate or second rate Christian and another is to measure whether you are in or out of salvation.
Both of these measurements can be quite scary and give a basic "hierarchy" to religious movements.
I have heard a movement justify the wearing of certain clothing to state you are "in" if you wear them and even restaurants have a uniform. But the restaurants only use the uniform for employment. The church is not using the uniform to determine whether a person attends that church but whether they are going to heaven or hell.

The thing is, all of these "in" or "out" criteria can be done by anyone anytime anywhere. They don't determine anything except whether a person is doing the rule.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

*

[KeptByTheWord]

I agree with your post. We've had plenty of discussion about Westboro, because of their hateful ideologies. Other groups have also been discussed as well.

Almost every group, as you have stated, have their standards. Any of them could be discussed at any time. It just so happens that most of us here on this forum have the most experience within the apostolic, pentecostal, upc ranks, and that is why those issues are discussed the most. I don't see a problem with that at all. If there is a wound, a sore, or a pustule, covering it up and ignoring it will never cure it. Only opening it up, and treating it properly will bring true healing.

Obviously everything created by man is imperfect, and with many blemishes. We are all on a journey. Ignoring the problems never heals them. Hopefully enough discussion about the issues that have been posted about, will bring about change that is good, which is why I think the discussion should continue, not in a hateful manner, but openly, and with compassion one to each other.

The issue should be discussed, instead of resorting to "hot button" methods that are generally used to ignore, and not discuss the problem.

[ILG]

Almost every group, as you have stated, have their standards. Any of them could be discussed at any time. It just so happens that most of us here on this forum have the most experience within the apostolic, pentecostal, upc ranks, and that is why those issues are discussed the most. I don't see a problem with that at all. If there is a wound, a sore, or a pustule, covering it up and ignoring it will never cure it. Only opening it up, and treating it properly will bring true healing.

The question about the group is, are you a second class Christian if you do not do the rule? Are you hell-bound? Are the rules salvational? can they be faked? If they can be faked, how can they be used for one person to measure another person's spirituality?

Obviously everything created by man is imperfect, and with many blemishes. We are all on a journey. Ignoring the problems never heals them. Hopefully enough discussion about the issues that have been posted about, will bring about change that is good, which is why I think the discussion should continue, not in a hateful manner, but openly, and with compassion one to each other.

Groups who use rules as measuring sticks often ignore the problems that come with them as a means of simply avoiding the issue. Then, the person who brings up the issue is blamed as the person creating the problem so people learn to never bring up issues because they don't want to be blamed. However, the person bringing up the issue is not the problem. This reminds me of government whistleblowers, who lose their jobs when they speak out because someone wants them silenced.

[jediwill83]

Just wondering but im wondering how American and western culture plays into any tendency to fake.Cultural lack of openness? The urge to hide behind a mask and present a favorable demeanor? Does this carryover into our religious experience as well? Just a thought...was loading up a patient into the ambulance and the thought came to me.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Just wondering but im wondering how American and western culture plays into any tendency to fake.Cultural lack of openness? The urge to hide behind a mask and present a favorable demeanor? Does this carryover into our religious experience as well? Just a thought...was loading up a patient into the ambulance and the thought came to me.

Do you think it is any different in any other culture? My feeling is that people are human and they hide their shortcomings whether those shortcomings are real or fabricated by their society.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Good question! The only thing I know is, we were married the next week!

The one thing I do know is, there is no way to confirm if tongues are real or fake. This is another fallacy of Religion and the requirements that are an idea, rather than what is necessary to please G-d.

I believe some people fake tongues or are induced to fake tongues.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Prax... LOL. If you don't like the discussion on this thread, don't come back and read it... Don't be like a little child, and sit in here and whine and whine until you get your way. Go post on your own thread you created to mock the other thread with the similar name.

"It" was in the first post. I stopped reading after that. I began chiming in on why we have to do that here of all places

Second, as I said many many times, it's NOT just this thread. It's others and it's NOT just threads but individual posts.

You would have to not read ANY THING on AFF to avoid that sort of stuff..

I've said that over and over