Twitter-TF Tenney at Jentezn Franklin's 2morrow!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Not afraid of anything. If I used something and thought it needed citing I would do it. Thing is if I use a sermon I heard somewhere I don't think it needs be cited UNLESS there is a point that there is no way I would came up with. But even then I don't it is a 'have to' thing but maybe an extra courtesy.

So maybe you discretion, which is created by learning and environment is the difference here. Again, your response doesn't answer "why not." So we know you (for some reason) don't want to, and don't think it's important -- but now... WHY NOT?

I didn't defend plagiarism. I said I don't consider it plagairism to use a thought or something some one else came up with. I just don't. So far as I can see it if a person even uses word-for-word it is no deal. I would see it as it must have ministered to this person or they wouldn't be using it.

That's just it, by its very definition, it IS plagiarism. It's not really up for you or I to subjectively change that. And there's a reason it is included (spoken word). It's honesty, character and humility. Some of the greatest speakers I've heard were well-read, and used their sources often, with citing.

One thing that I have learned in life is that we Christians have a bad name mainly because of other Christians. However, there are people that will develop an opinion based on something very small and from then on that is their opinion. I am sure Jeffrey now has a certain opinion of me. That is cool. With me I try very hard to not develop a strong opinion, good or bad, on anyone cause we are human and we aren't perfect so why set lofted views of someone all the time. I see everyone for who they are, human.

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[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

This guy was particularly offended recently. I felt this blog and the comments on it represent quite an overreaction to what was said in humor about JF's experiences at his local church growing up, and about specific people. I've heard worse in MANY conference speaker's sermons (in the UPC). But, this blog I am referencing due to the issue of plagiarism. The blog owner says he has "proof" in the form of preaching tapes/cds/mp3s, that when matched up are almost identical. Who knows...

He's saying that JF stole his sermons? Was he a big name preacher or something?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

The topic of plagiarism in the pulpit is such a NON issue to me seriously.

Not disingenous here. I was making sure that nothing I said hurt any feeling. I guess I am trying to make sure I have a good reputation...wink wink

Sorry to pester with silly questions... but still missing the WHY?

Why, when most of the world thinks plagiarism is silly, unethical and dishonest do you think it's "no big deal?"

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Okay back to JF...

Who said it was two sermons? Allegations purport it was much more than that. Either way, if they are two sermons word-for-word, without referencing anything else, and misleading people as if they are your own inspired thoughts, that's unfortunate. Especially when you make the money guys like JF do for speaking.

If it's not true -- then great. I don't know if it is or not! But a larger issue surfaced on this thread: "is it right to plagiarize in the pulpit?"

I am not sure how many sermons someone might have used to point at JF. I am referring to the people that you have heard take issue with him for stealing.

My point was that any given broadcast seen on TV was preached several months if not sometimes years ago. Someone mention the message Anthony Mangun preached about "take of the coat" I have that dvd actually, good message. I saw JF version or similar message. Some of it was similar and some not. It was not plariaism, IMO.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by jfrog

He's saying that JF stole his sermons? Was he a big name preacher or something?

No. Apparently JF dissed OP's in a sermon. This guy ranted about it, using it as an opportunity to talk about how wrong it is that he rips off UPC preacher's sermons, and then turns around and bashes them as well.

The guy alleging is not a preacher (I don't think), nor is the person who was "robbed."

http://ryanaustindean.wordpress.com/...little-secret/

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I am not sure how many sermons someone might have used to point at JF. I am referring to the people that you have heard take issue with him for stealing.

My point was that any given broadcast seen on TV was preached several months if not sometimes years ago. Someone mention the message Anthony Mangun preached about "take of the coat" I have that dvd actually, good message. I saw JF version or similar message. Some of it was similar and some not. It was not plariaism, IMO.

Well, I certainly don't want to inquire of your opinion what plagiarism is, but I'm curious what you've learned from academic resources what plagiarism is.

I've never hard the Mangun message.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

This guy was particularly offended recently. I felt this blog and the comments on it represent quite an overreaction to what was said in humor about JF's experiences at his local church growing up, and about specific people. I've heard worse in MANY conference speaker's sermons (in the UPC). But, this blog I am referencing due to the issue of plagiarism. The blog owner says he has "proof" in the form of preaching tapes/cds/mp3s, that when matched up are almost identical. Who knows...



http://ryanaustindean.wordpress.com/...little-secret/

Thanks for posting that link, Jeffrey. Here's a quote from the blog:

"If Jentezen Franklin disdains us (and his past) so much, then why has he gained a reputation for plagiarizing messages from notable apostolic ministers like Mike Williams, Wayne Huntley, Jerry Jones, T.F. Tenney, J.H. Osborne, and Jeff Arnold, among others? He recently preached Bro. Williams’ message from Because of the Times 2010 nearly verbatim at Ed Young’s C3 conference.

Franklin has re-preached messages first delivered by the aforementioned ministers (which is usually considered acceptable), but also stolen personal stories from messages, interjecting himself into others’ experiences without clarifying the difference (not acceptable)."

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Sorry to pester with silly questions... but still missing the WHY?

Why, when most of the world thinks plagiarism is silly, unethical and dishonest do you think it's "no big deal?"

He answered why for me, he feels that if it was something he could have reasonably came up with then he feels its not important really important to cite. I can buy that explanation. However, I guess I am still curious as to why it might not be important to cite something you couldn't have came up with yourself.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Sorry to pester with silly questions... but still missing the WHY?

Why, when most of the world thinks plagiarism is silly, unethical and dishonest do you think it's "no big deal?"

Here is the rub. You think that using someones sermon is plagiarism. I find it virtually impossible to use someones sermon word for word...this is not going to happen often or at all, IMO. Acutal plagiarism is an issue with something that is published. Video and audio messages is not covered by this unless it is ones opinion to include it. I will say this that if a preacher constantly uses someone elses sermons all the time then that is weird.

Question....do you think that it is wrong to use bible things like word a flame publications as your notes when preaching or teaching? Isn't that what they are there for? I don't think one can actually plagiarise in the pulpit unless they are using something that is actually published like a book and trying to pass it as their own.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Thanks for posting that link, Jeffrey. Here's a quote from the blog:

"If Jentezen Franklin disdains us (and his past) so much, then why has he gained a reputation for plagiarizing messages from notable apostolic ministers like Mike Williams, Wayne Huntley, Jerry Jones, T.F. Tenney, J.H. Osborne, and Jeff Arnold, among others? He recently preached Bro. Williams’ message from Because of the Times 2010 nearly verbatim at Ed Young’s C3 conference.

Franklin has re-preached messages first delivered by the aforementioned ministers (which is usually considered acceptable), but also stolen personal stories from messages, interjecting himself into others’ experiences without clarifying the difference (not acceptable)."

Interesting that he says that practice is generally acceptable... Just sayin