God, Is My Obededience Not Enough?: When HH Fails

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

And yet many believe that unless certain works are attained first on the checklist ... proving one's "commitment" ... placing faith in that commitment ... than there is no righteous standing before ... God ...

The very thing Keith has said.

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Pretty simple to me.

If you have faith-you will have works to back up that faith.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ron

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Pretty simple to me.

If you have faith-you will have works to back up that faith.

Who said these words? John the Baptist ... who was he speaking to? .... the people of Israel ... pre New Covenant ... (for you dispensationalists this poses a problem when used as pre-text for a works-based salvational paradigm)

was this repentance faith in the work of Jesus Christ for ... or faith in God and His Word to the Sadduccees and Pharisees and the Israelites ... which was the law? Was this faith, nonetheless that God would provide salvation? If they repented ... would that be enough for a 3 stepper ...?

Was faith and repentance in Him enough for them ... but we have to complete a checklist/recipe now for His Spirit to quicken us to life?

The Jew never obeyed the law to cause their salvation .... ask them why they do it.

In John 15 ... Jesus said his disciples would bring forth His fruit as branches grafted and surrendered to the Vine.

We know that all good gifts come from above ... that it's His Word that is the instrument that brings us to repentance and that produces Godly sorrow ... am I saying we don't play a part of course in having faith ... we will turn to him and rely on Him for our salvation. If there is genuine faith there will be repentance ... baptism ... etc. etc. etc.

Also meet here does not mean cause but rather genuine repentance will have fruit of worth.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Who said these words? John the Baptist ... who was he speaking to? .... the people of Israel ... pre New Covenant ... (for you dispensationalists this poses a problem when used as pre-text)

was this repentance faith in the work of Jesus Christ for ... or faith in God and His Word to the Sadduccees and Pharisees and the Israelites ... which was the law? Was this faith, nonetheless that God would provide salvation? If they repented ... would that be enough for a 3 stepper ...?

In John 15 ... Jesus said his disciples would bring forth His fruit as branches grafted and surrendered to the Vine.

We know that all good gifts come from above ... that it's His Word that is the instrument that brings us to repentance and that produces Godly sorrow ... am I saying we don't play a part of course in having faith ... we will turn to him and rely on Him for our salvation.

All I am saying is what the Bible says,

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ron

All I am saying is what the Bible says,

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And I believe:

1. That the Word does not contradict itself.
2. This passage only supports the one-step Gospel message further
3. Find the context of this passage to deal w/ giving to the poor and yet none of us would dare say that this causes our justification.

Here is a sound biblical explanation of James 2, by Bernie Gillespie:

WHAT ABRAHAM’S FAITH MEANS

The story of Abraham concerning the promised offspring is a perfect, God-inspired illustration of the working of justification by faith. God gave Abraham a word of promise that he would be the father of many nations. He was to be the father of the Messiah. Through him would come the offspring (singular) which would bless the whole world. But, Abraham was childless. Sarah was barren. They could do nothing to make the promise come to pass. They did try to do many things to help God, but He rejected them all. The child they had was a miracle - a supernatural work of conception by God. Sarah gave birth by faith alone: "Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable." (Heb. 11:11-12 KJV)

All they could do was receive the miracle. The promise was given to Abraham before he was faithful. He was not faithful in order to earn the promise, but because of the assurance of the promise. This is true of justification by faith. We bring nothing to the table of salvation but open empty hands. God promises, fulfills the promise supernaturally, and we in awe, wonder, and trust receive the gift of new birth.

This story tells us something else. The faith that Abraham placed in God’s declaration of justification was not mental assent. It was a faith which endured throughout and up to the end of his life. Justifying faith is anything but "easy believism." It is a rugged faith created in the heart by the entrance of the Word of promise. Nothing will separate one who believes from the love of God. "Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phil. 1:6)

If we understand James correctly, we see that Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac was evidence that God was right in Genesis fifteen. God’s justifying work was effective in Abraham’s life the rest of his life. The test of time and of God proved that the work of justification is valid. This is in fact why God tested Abraham. It was not to see if he was worthy of salvation. But, it was to show the world that his salvation was sure. Based on this sure salvation, God gave the world an object lesson of the Gospel: the offering of one’s only son.

While Abraham was justified (made right with God) by faith alone, without works (Gen. 15:6, Rom. 4), Abraham's faith (not his person) was justified by what he did. [No person justified by faith is free to live a life of ungodliness. All who are justified by faith are called to a life of obedience to Christ and true holiness, which is the character of Jesus Christ.]

Paul says in Romans, ABRAHAM was justified.
In James, Abraham’s FAITH was justified.

For Paul in Romans, the SINNER is forgiven. In James, the believer is approved as a believer evidenced by a changed life. When we are justified, we are saved through trust alone in Christ alone. As a result, that faith will be demonstrated through the living presence of Jesus in our everyday life. If it is not, we must examine our faith to see if it is in Christ alone or in Christ plus something else. THIS IS THE TRUE AND FINAL TEST.

Abraham showed by his works that his faith was in God alone. This is why Abraham was saved. He was saved by faith in God alone. His faith was "justified" or proved by his works. He was not justified FOR his works. His justification or salvation was APART from and PRIOR to his works. But the works will always follow because the heart that is redeemed will desire to glorify God in true discipleship and submission to the will of God.

James was not teaching that a person must keep the Law or perform certain religious functions to be saved. That is far from the message of the book of James. It is also interesting that the people who want to quote James against the "believe only" people don’t seem to have a proper understanding about what James is teaching. In fact they may come under James’ correction for unwittingly doing what James is denouncing.

INAUTHENTIC FAITH

James'’ letter (as is true in most epistles) reveals certain problems among his readers. We can discern these problems by noting the admonitions given to them by James. The controversy of James was that some Jewish Christians were claiming to have the "faith of Christ," while their lives failed to reflect the presence of Christ. How was this known? Was it by super-spiritual discernment? No. It was by the absence of Christ’s character in their lives. This is an observation that even the world can make (John 13:35). They were very religious and had their doctrine fairly straight. However, their faith was lacking because it did not reflect the One in whom they supposedly believed.

James’ admonitions indicate they failed in many areas of character and conduct. They did not have compassion on the widows and orphans (1:27), they were showing favoritism and were prejudiced (2:1), they were intolerant (2:4), they failed to fulfill the "royal law" (2:13) [not the Mosaic Law] which was to "love your neighbor as yourself" [which was the ethic or law of Jesus], they came up short in providing for the needy (2:16), some were cursing others with their tongues and violating others with their mouths (3:10), out of the heart they displayed bitter envy and selfish ambitions (3:14), they were boastful and "false to the truth" (3:14), they engaged in conflicts and disputes (4:1), they were proud and arrogant (4:7-10)(4:16), they spoke evil against their brothers (4:11), they were judgmental (4:12), they did not do what was right although they knew it to be right (4:17), they grumbled against other brothers and sisters (5:9). James says this type of living is not inspired of God, but is unspiritual and devilish. It is inspired by the flesh (Jas. 3:15).

The works that they failed to keep were not the works of the law. James was correcting their failure to keep the ROYAL LAW of Christ. This was even after claiming justifying faith in Christ. He was saying that their behavior did not reflect that of one who had true faith in Jesus. They should have been compassionate, impartial, tolerant, blessing with their words, sweet and contented, selfless, peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, full of righteousness, humble, patient, confessing sins, and leading sinners back to God. [Notice that James does not list any formulas, duties, ordinances, or codes of outward appearance in this list. I point this out because James is used by some to prove that these are the "works" to which James is referring. And then the huge assumption is made that they are necessary for justification (or salvation).]

We'll agree to disagree ABOUT JUSTIFICATION.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

And I believe:

1. That the Word does not contradict itself.
2. This passage only supports the one-step Gospel message further
3. Find the context of this passage to deal w/ giving to the poor and yet none of us would dare say that this causes our justification.

Here is a sound biblical explanation of James 2, by Bernie Gillespie:

WHAT ABRAHAM’S FAITH MEANS

The story of Abraham concerning the promised offspring is a perfect, God-inspired illustration of the working of justification by faith. God gave Abraham a word of promise that he would be the father of many nations. He was to be the father of the Messiah. Through him would come the offspring (singular) which would bless the whole world. But, Abraham was childless. Sarah was barren. They could do nothing to make the promise come to pass. They did try to do many things to help God, but He rejected them all. The child they had was a miracle - a supernatural work of conception by God. Sarah gave birth by faith alone: "Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable." (Heb. 11:11-12 KJV)

All they could do was receive the miracle. The promise was given to Abraham before he was faithful. He was not faithful in order to earn the promise, but because of the assurance of the promise. This is true of justification by faith. We bring nothing to the table of salvation but open empty hands. God promises, fulfills the promise supernaturally, and we in awe, wonder, and trust receive the gift of new birth.

This story tells us something else. The faith that Abraham placed in God’s declaration of justification was not mental assent. It was a faith which endured throughout and up to the end of his life. Justifying faith is anything but "easy believism." It is a rugged faith created in the heart by the entrance of the Word of promise. Nothing will separate one who believes from the love of God. "Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phil. 1:6)

If we understand James correctly, we see that Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac was evidence that God was right in Genesis fifteen. God’s justifying work was effective in Abraham’s life the rest of his life. The test of time and of God proved that the work of justification is valid. This is in fact why God tested Abraham. It was not to see if he was worthy of salvation. But, it was to show the world that his salvation was sure. Based on this sure salvation, God gave the world an object lesson of the Gospel: the offering of one’s only son.

While Abraham was justified (made right with God) by faith alone, without works (Gen. 15:6, Rom. 4), Abraham's faith (not his person) was justified by what he did. [No person justified by faith is free to live a life of ungodliness. All who are justified by faith are called to a life of obedience to Christ and true holiness, which is the character of Jesus Christ.]

Paul says in Romans, ABRAHAM was justified.
In James, Abraham’s FAITH was justified.

For Paul in Romans, the SINNER is forgiven. In James, the believer is approved as a believer evidenced by a changed life. When we are justified, we are saved through trust alone in Christ alone. As a result, that faith will be demonstrated through the living presence of Jesus in our everyday life. If it is not, we must examine our faith to see if it is in Christ alone or in Christ plus something else. THIS IS THE TRUE AND FINAL TEST.

Abraham showed by his works that his faith was in God alone. This is why Abraham was saved. He was saved by faith in God alone. His faith was "justified" or proved by his works. He was not justified FOR his works. His justification or salvation was APART from and PRIOR to his works. But the works will always follow because the heart that is redeemed will desire to glorify God in true discipleship and submission to the will of God.

James was not teaching that a person must keep the Law or perform certain religious functions to be saved. That is far from the message of the book of James. It is also interesting that the people who want to quote James against the "believe only" people don’t seem to have a proper understanding about what James is teaching. In fact they may come under James’ correction for unwittingly doing what James is denouncing.

INAUTHENTIC FAITH

James'’ letter (as is true in most epistles) reveals certain problems among his readers. We can discern these problems by noting the admonitions given to them by James. The controversy of James was that some Jewish Christians were claiming to have the "faith of Christ," while their lives failed to reflect the presence of Christ. How was this known? Was it by super-spiritual discernment? No. It was by the absence of Christ’s character in their lives. This is an observation that even the world can make (John 13:35). They were very religious and had their doctrine fairly straight. However, their faith was lacking because it did not reflect the One in whom they supposedly believed.

James’ admonitions indicate they failed in many areas of character and conduct. They did not have compassion on the widows and orphans (1:27), they were showing favoritism and were prejudiced (2:1), they were intolerant (2:4), they failed to fulfill the "royal law" (2:13) [not the Mosaic Law] which was to "love your neighbor as yourself" [which was the ethic or law of Jesus], they came up short in providing for the needy (2:16), some were cursing others with their tongues and violating others with their mouths (3:10), out of the heart they displayed bitter envy and selfish ambitions (3:14), they were boastful and "false to the truth" (3:14), they engaged in conflicts and disputes (4:1), they were proud and arrogant (4:7-10)(4:16), they spoke evil against their brothers (4:11), they were judgmental (4:12), they did not do what was right although they knew it to be right (4:17), they grumbled against other brothers and sisters (5:9). James says this type of living is not inspired of God, but is unspiritual and devilish. It is inspired by the flesh (Jas. 3:15).

The works that they failed to keep were not the works of the law. James was correcting their failure to keep the ROYAL LAW of Christ. This was even after claiming justifying faith in Christ. He was saying that their behavior did not reflect that of one who had true faith in Jesus. They should have been compassionate, impartial, tolerant, blessing with their words, sweet and contented, selfless, peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, full of righteousness, humble, patient, confessing sins, and leading sinners back to God. [Notice that James does not list any formulas, duties, ordinances, or codes of outward appearance in this list. I point this out because James is used by some to prove that these are the "works" to which James is referring. And then the huge assumption is made that they are necessary for justification (or salvation).]

We'll agree to disagree ABOUT JUSTIFICATION.

That we shall!

[The Mrs]

I was amazed to come to the forum today to see this thread. It contains the exact thoughts that have been bouncing around in my head all morning...

How can we look at this uncut hair doctrine and NOT see it as an additional step to salvation/sanctification? And it ONLY applies to women!

Thank you Keith, DA, and others for your input!

[Ron]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

I was amazed to come to the forum today to see this thread. It contains the exact thoughts that have been bouncing around in my head all morning...

How can we look at this uncut hair doctrine and NOT see it as an additional step to salvation/sanctification? And it ONLY applies to women!

Thank you Keith, DA, and others for your input!

Wives submitting to thier husbands only applies to women as well.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

I was amazed to come to the forum today to see this thread. It contains the exact thoughts that have been bouncing around in my head all morning...

How can we look at this uncut hair doctrine and NOT see it as an additional step to salvation/sanctification? And it ONLY applies to women!

Thank you Keith, DA, and others for your input!

You are right and this is something I have thought of long long before these threads popped up the past week. Anytime you create an additional "work" that must be done (or not done) in order to gain entrance into heaven, most of the damage has already been done as far as future wacky doctrines that might arise as a result of the first.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

And I believe:

1. That the Word does not contradict itself.
2. This passage only supports the one-step Gospel message further
3. Find the context of this passage to deal w/ giving to the poor and yet none of us would dare say that this causes our justification.

Here is a sound biblical explanation of James 2, by Bernie Gillespie:

WHAT ABRAHAM’S FAITH MEANS


All they could do was receive the miracle. The promise was given to Abraham before he was faithful. He was not faithful in order to earn the promise, but because of the assurance of the promise. This is true of justification by faith. We bring nothing to the table of salvation but open empty hands. God promises, fulfills the promise supernaturally, and we in awe, wonder, and trust receive the gift of new birth.

Daniel,
I tried to read this article, but I can't get past the above. This rather contradicts scripture.

Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

Your article is stating that Abraham did not begin with faith but the Word says that God has dealt TO EVERY MAN the measure of faith. If Abraham didn't believe and have faith he wouldn't have left Haran.

Your author even speaks of Sarah's faith. Hebrews 11:11 "Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised."

We do bring something to the table of salvation - ourselves in humility. That takes a tremendous amount of faith.

The promise was made from the foundation of the world. God imparts a measure of faith so that we can thereby receive it.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Daniel,
I tried to read this article, but I can't get past the above. This rather contradicts scripture.

Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

Your article is stating that Abraham did not begin with faith but the Word says that God has dealt TO EVERY MAN the measure of faith. If Abraham didn't believe and have faith he wouldn't have left Haran.

We do bring something to the table of salvation - ourselves in humility. That takes a tremendous amount of faith.

The promise was made from the foundation of the world. God imparts a measure of faith so that we can thereby receive it.

PO, all we need is to blab it and grab it, & name it and claim it.
BTW, God wants you to be rich and successful too!