Water/Spirit

[StMark]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

I have found that this line of thinking is why most people keep standards (a fear of losing out with God). Remember whatsoever is not of faith is ... People are going to do what they are going to do. Outward standards help with unity in a denomination, but that is about it.

and is that altogether such a bad thing? that is, to fear losing out with God
especially in the times we live when so many seem to be falling into dececption and false doctrine.
I would rather era on the side of caution in these times

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Rico

Ok. Just for fun, and because you asked. (honestly, I hate doing this sort of thing with people. It stops being about truth and starts being about who is better at making an argument!)

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:1-7 (KJV)


A fella named Nicodemus walks up to Jesus on night and says to him, "Jesus, we know you are the man when it comes to anything pertaining to God. You got it goin on with all these miracles you do. No one could walk that kinda talk unless he was hooked up big time." Jesus tells him, "Ya gotta be born again to even see where I'm comin from." Nicodemus says, "Huh? How can a brotha be born again? What's he gotta do, go back into his mama again and be born?" Jesus answers, "A man has to be born into this world and be born into the world of the Spirit. Otherwise, he ain't gettin into God's kingdom." Whatever is born of this world is of this world, and whatever is born of the Spirit world is of the Spirit world. Don't be so surprised that I said you have to be born again.

Rico, you did an excellent job but I agree with Matt. The part in red just doesn't cut it.


Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

"A man has to be born into this world and be born into the world of the Spirit. Otherwise, he ain't gettin into God's kingdom."

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Rico

Ok. Just for fun, and because you asked. (honestly, I hate doing this sort of thing with people. It stops being about truth and starts being about who is better at making an argument!)

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:1-7 (KJV)


A fella named Nicodemus walks up to Jesus on night and says to him, "Jesus, we know you are the man when it comes to anything pertaining to God. You got it goin on with all these miracles you do. No one could walk that kinda talk unless he was hooked up big time." Jesus tells him, "Ya gotta be born again to even see where I'm comin from." Nicodemus says, "Huh? How can a brotha be born again? What's he gotta do, go back into his mama again and be born?" Jesus answers, "A man has to be born into this world and be born into the world of the Spirit. Otherwise, he ain't gettin into God's kingdom." Whatever is born of this world is of this world, and whatever is born of the Spirit world is of the Spirit world. Don't be so surprised that I said you have to be born again.

See here, you interpreted whereas all I did was translate. You posted your belief of what the verse means. I just stated exactly what it said.

[Rico]

If y'all are comfortable with chucking everything else the NT has to say about baptism signifying burial, just to prove this point, then knock yourselves out. That is your choice. Water baptism points toward burial, NOT birth. Good luck trying to prove otherwise.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

See here, you interpreted whereas all I did was translate. You posted your belief of what the verse means. I just stated exactly what it said.

According to you, all you did was translate, St. Matt. That's exactly why I didn't want to do it in the first place.

[bkstokes]

There have been and will probably always be three different interpretations to theses verses. Two of them have already been expounded here. The third is that the water is done by the washing of the word. JFB explains that Ezekiel 36:25 could be an application of this. (p. 1030)

I agree with Chuck Smith's comentary on these verses. He stated and I paraphrase, "Between these three views, it really does not make a difference for the Kingdom of God how one interprets it because almost all Christians have baptism as an ordinance from the Lord."

[bkstokes]

Originally Posted by StMark

and is that altogether such a bad thing? that is, to fear losing out with God
especially in the times we live when so many seem to be falling into dececption and false doctrine.
I would rather era on the side of caution in these times

Mark

I believe we ought to try the spirits, but not the dresses. I look at these last days in another perspective. Sure there is deception and sure there is false doctrine. Nevertheless, I believe the Church of Jesus Christ is going from glory to glory. Thus, I have set in my mind that I will do the Word of God and I will discard the traditions of men that hinder His word. (Believe I still believe in modesty -- just ask my wife -- but in most people man enforced standards create a critical attitude amongst God's people.)

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Rico

If y'all are comfortable with chucking everything else the NT has to say about baptism signifying burial, just to prove this point, then knock yourselves out. That is your choice. Water baptism points toward burial, NOT birth. Good luck trying to prove otherwise.

Most things are not limited to meaning or pointing to one thing, you know. Baptism strips away the old man.

And a new birth of a seed does what?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Some things are not stuck to meaning or pointing to one thing, you know. Baptism strips away the old man.

And a new birth of a seed does what?

In terms of the NT message of salvation things do mean what they mean. The Gospel is still the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Death (repentance), burial (water baptism), and resurrection (infilling of HG). Anything that deviates from that pattern is not the Gospel.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

See here, you interpreted whereas all I did was translate. You posted your belief of what the verse means. I just stated exactly what it said.

That there in is the root core St Matt.