The Death Penalty

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

There are two reasons in my opinion.

The state is making no attempt at rehabilitation especially in the areas of those imprisoned primarily for drug use offenses. Getting out of jail without counseling, usually on a very strict parole. Now with the added pressure of being a convicted felon. (Try getting a job with that on your resume). Those who participate in classes, vocational training and the such like do stand a marginally better chance of staying out. So while I have no problem whatsoever with creature comforts being limited I would not want to limit things like being about to earn an honest living upon release. The current philosophy and application is overwhelmingly punishment period. They are being taught society's value is an eye for an eye.

Which brings to part two- The failure of the church as a whole to reach them. Permanent change is heart change. There are some sterling examples of prison ministry, but not enough is being done to reach the millions, yes I said millions we have in jail. But even then we feel our job is done when we have revival in jail. However, as be pointed out jail house religion is easy. Who supports them when they get out? Not the state and definitely not the church!! We pretty wash our hands once they are out, but that is when the most help is needed.

Bravo....

On the bolded portion....

Agreed... and when they end up in jail we just shrug our shoulders and say... well... what more would you expect.

I would expect a lot more... not from them necessarily... they are still born of the flesh and are not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be... but I would expect more from us... the church.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Nope, I've never been to prison. I do have firends (when I was in the Army National Guard) that were prison guards. They do get to watch movies, they do get an education and they even get to excersize when they want to. In fact I have a cousin that spent three years in a prison. The information that I recieved is from those that have direct contact with the prison system.

With all due respect National Guard "prison" is in no way indicative of what most prisoners are subjected to. They live in constant fear of being raped, getting AIDS, TB is rampant, most are overcrowded and many sleep on urine covered floors because there are not enough bunks. Many join gangs while in prison just to survive. Once released these gang form their only social network. Neither mainstream, nor the church reaches out. These facts are true whether they are hard core when they go in, or merely a drug user, or a stupid kid who stole a car. Our prisons create the dangerous criminals.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

With all due respect National Guard "prison" is in no way indicative of what most prisoners are subjected to. They live in constant fear of being raped, getting AIDS, TB is rampant, most are overcrowded and many sleep on urine covered floors because there are not enough bunks. Many join gangs while in prison just to survive. Once released these gang form their only social network. Neither mainstream, nor the church reaches out. These facts are true whether they are hard core when they go in, or merely a drug user, or a stupid kid who stole a car. Our prisons create the dangerous criminals.

Indeed...

A minor, non violent offender can be sent to prison and come out a far worse individual than the one that went in there.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

There are two reasons in my opinion.

The state is making no attempt at rehabilitation especially in the areas of those imprisoned primarily for drug use offenses. Getting out of jail without counseling, usually on a very strict parole. Now with the added pressure of being a convicted felon. (Try getting a job with that on your resume). Those who participate in classes, vocational training and the such like do stand a marginally better chance of staying out. So while I have no problem whatsoever with creature comforts being limited I would not want to limit things like being about to earn an honest living upon release. The current philosophy and application is overwhelmingly punishment period. They are being taught society's value is an eye for an eye.

Which brings to part two- The failure of the church as a whole to reach them. Permanent change is heart change. There are some sterling examples of prison ministry, but not enough is being done to reach the millions, yes I said millions we have in jail. But even then we feel our job is done when we have revival in jail. However, as be pointed out jail house religion is easy. Who supports them when they get out? Not the state and definitely not the church!! We pretty wash our hands once they are out, but that is when the most help is needed.

Excellent points, I really can't argue with that. We as a church aren't doing enough. However, people will be people and reject God even in prison as they so often do outside of prisons. With the evedence of the fact that there are people that are wrongly accused, I wouldn't be so inclined to support the death penalty. I have a step-brother who was murdered some years back, I believe the killers should get what they deserve. There is a spiritual law of reaping and sowing (as well as physical) that says you get what you plant. If someone lies, steals, kills etc..etc..., then they should get what they sow. Same with mercy, kindness, love, meekness etc...etc. I support the death penalty when the punishment fits the crime. (without a reasonable doubt of course)

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

With all due respect National Guard "prison" is in no way indicative of what most prisoners are subjected to. They live in constant fear of being raped, getting AIDS, TB is rampant, most are overcrowded and many sleep on urine covered floors because there are not enough bunks. Many join gangs while in prison just to survive. Once released these gang form their only social network. Neither mainstream, nor the church reaches out. These facts are true whether they are hard core when they go in, or merely a drug user, or a stupid kid who stole a car. Our prisons create the dangerous criminals.

Members in the National Guard are state prison guards as well as firefighters, police officers within a local and state capacity. I'm not talking about a military prison my friend.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Members in the National Guard are state prison guards as well as firefighters, police officers within a local and state capacity. I'm not talking about a military prison my friend.

Well I regularly visit several inmates in several facilities and I have not see what you your friend has seen.

Maybe we can find out where this place is and get the inmates that I visit transfered.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Well I regularly visit several inmates in several facilities and I have not see what you your friend has seen.

Maybe we can find out where this place is and get the inmates that I visit transfered.

Thats "friends" as in more than one. My cousin was also in prison, so I too have "sources". So, can you tell me that the prisoners that you've visited do not get to watch T.V.? They don't get to go outside and play basketball, and excersize with gym equipment? They do not get to read books and recieve an education? They don't get to eat three meals a day? Come on Digg!

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Thats "friends" as in more than one. My cousin was also in prison, so I too have "sources". So, can you tell me that the prisoners that you've visited do not get to watch T.V.? They don't get to go outside and play basketball, and excersize with gym equipment? They do not get to read books and recieve an education? They don't get to eat three meals a day? Come on Digg!

They do watch TV...

They do not get to read books or get an education.

To go outside, eat 3 meals and to exercise is a luxury to you?

Why would you not want them to get an education? I would think that getting an education would be a good way to make them more able to get out of their original lifestyle. Getting an education would seem to be a good move towards rehabilitation.

Do you want to rehabilitate them?

Is so... in what ways?

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

They do watch TV...

They do not get to read books or get an education.

To go outside, eat 3 meals and to exercise is a luxury to you?

Why would you not want them to get an education? I would think that getting an education would be a good way to make them more able to get out of their original lifestyle. Getting an education would seem to be a good move towards rehabilitation.

Do you want to rehabilitate them?

Is so... in what ways?

They do not get to read books or get an education? Okay, if you say so, I guess my reputable sources were lying to me. As far as rehab, thats not my expertise. You? How would you rehab them?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

They do not get to read books or get an education? Okay, if you say so, I guess my reputable sources were lying to me.

First... let me correct something.. they can read... I have given them books before... but there is no library of any sort available for them in the prisons I have visited.

Secondly... why get sarcastic? Just because things are different where I visit people doesn't mean that anybody is liar. I don't understand the need to do that.

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

As far as rehab, thats not my expertise. You? How would you rehab them?

Well... one would think that... at the most basic level... an education would be a great idea.

Wouldn't you agree?

They, of course, need religious rehabilitation. That is something the church could work to provide more of (we certainly don't want the state providing it)

But.. as I said... the most basic of steps toward rehabilitation would be to educate them to the point that they would be able to find themselves a place in society when they get out. Not only should education be made available... one might consider whether, as part of their sentence, each one would be required to attain a certain level of education.