Now you are saying that the word giants does not really mean giants.
Supposed that you are correct that Genesis 6 does not refer to actual giants.
Then answer me how it is that Caleb fought against giants?
and that even David and his men encountered giants?
just where did those giants came from?
Look at 2 Samuel 21:16. It says "sons of the giant"....
Sons of the giant - The “giant” here 2Sa_21:18, 2Sa_21:20, 2Sa_21:22 is “ha-Raphah,” whence, the “Rephaim” Gen_14:5; Deu_2:11. The sons of Ha-raphah, or Rephaim, are different from the “Nephilim,” or Giants Gen_6:4; Num_13:33. The sons of Anak were not strictly Rephaim, but Nephilim.
So, logically, I would have to agree with Gill on this: "It may be necessary to remark here that our translators have rendered seven different Hebrew words by the one term giants, viz., nephilim, gibborim, enachim, rephaim, emim, and zamzummim; by which appellatives are probably meant in general persons of great knowledge, piety, courage, wickedness, etc., and not men of enormous stature, as is generally conjectured."
In Numbers 13:33, the spies giving a false report, which means lying, probably exaggerated that ALL of the inhabitants were tall. That is probably the lie as I see it. A couple of translations say that they spread a negative report, a false report and lies among the Israelites.
Other interpretations say that Joshua and Caleb agreed that the land was good, but by saying not to fear the people, they are speaking of their number and strength.
Speaking of Goliath, the Bible says "THE" giant, indicating or alluding to the view that not ALL of the inhabitants were tall.
That makes more sense than saying angels swooped down to copulate with humans and made some really tall guys. Some people are just tall. There used to be dinosaurs who were very, very tall. Did angels copulate with animals as well?
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Last edited by Pressing-On; 09-09-2014 at 10:35 AM.
Look at 2 Samuel 21:16. It says "sons of the giant"....
Sons of the giant - The “giant” here 2Sa_21:18, 2Sa_21:20, 2Sa_21:22 is “ha-Raphah,” whence, the “Rephaim” Gen_14:5; Deu_2:11. The sons of Ha-raphah, or Rephaim, are different from the “Nephilim,” or Giants Gen_6:4; Num_13:33. The sons of Anak were not strictly Rephaim, but Nephilim.
So, logically, I would have to agree with Gill on this: "It may be necessary to remark here that our translators have rendered seven different Hebrew words by the one term giants, viz., nephilim, gibborim, enachim, rephaim, emim, and zamzummim; by which appellatives are probably meant in general persons of great knowledge, piety, courage, wickedness, etc., and not men of enormous stature, as is generally conjectured."
In Numbers 13:33, the spies giving a false report, which means lying, probably exaggerated that ALL of the inhabitants were tall. That is probably the lie as I see it. A couple of translations say that they spread a negative report, a false report and lies among the Israelites.
Other interpretations say that Joshua and Caleb agreed that the land was good, but by saying not to fear the people, they are speaking of their number and strength.
Speaking of Goliath, the Bible says "THE" giant, indicating or alluding to the view that not ALL of the inhabitants were tall.
That makes more sense than saying angels swooped down to copulate with humans and made some really tall guys. Some people are just tall. There used to be dinosaurs who were very, very tall. Did angels copulate with animals as well?
You may be right or perhaps not.
I am not going to say flat out that you are mistaken.
but You have not presented a clear and convincing case for your position.
we have been dancing back and forth, but we are still in the same place.
I believe that perhaps this is one of those mysteries that will not be solved until the end of time.
Until then I will leave open the possibility that Sons of God in Genesis 6 means Angels and that the reference to Giants refers to people of large size.
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**Original Matthew 28:19 Restored**
You may be right or perhaps not.
I am not going to say flat out that you are mistaken.
but You have not presented a clear and convincing case for your position.
we have been dancing back and forth, but we are still in the same place.
I believe that perhaps this is one of those mysteries that will not be solved until the end of time.
Until then I will leave open the possibility that Sons of God in Genesis 6 means Angels and that the reference to Giants refers to people of large size.
Of course it is not clear to you, because you don't agree. That's just how it goes, and that's okay. We don't have to agree.
Perhaps my background as a Catholic, and all of the superstition that is associated with that, makes we walk away from things that seem mystical or strange.
There are people who believe in aliens and Big Foot, and that's okay as well. To each his own.
Well, you are wrong, the shorter you live, the less chance of growing longer. That is why God let man die at a younger age. Their growth slowed down..
That is a supposition, why should the length of life affect the growth of a person?
A person stops growing just before the age of 20.
with a lifespan of 120 years.
now let us multiply that for the years that people used to live before the flood. 900 years more or less.
for the sake of clearness let us just take a short man, about 5 feet tall.
he is never going to make into the NBA but he is OK with that.
This is what this man grew by the age of 20.
now let us divide the 900 into the 120 years now allotted.
900/120 = 7.5
OK now let us multiply the growth of this person by 7.5
7.5 X 5 = 37.5
So according to your logic, a short man in the time of Noah was actually 37.5 feet.
OK let us see how tall is that. Andre the giant was 6' 11 let us round it up and say he was 7 feet tall.
so what you are saying is that a short man in the time of Noah was 30 feet taller than Andre the Giant. Now that is gigantic.
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**Original Matthew 28:19 Restored**
It does not tell us bro. , so it is only SPECULATION of who these angels are and what they did... You will need alot more than speculation to make this the doctrine of demon babies.
BTW...This demon baby debate has been going on long before Josephus came along...
Josephus and some heretical church fathers were influenced to believe Gen 6 was demon babies, by their belief in the Apocryphal book of Enoch(which they regarded as sacred scripture). This book of Enoch teaches that Satan had sex with Eve to produce her 2nd son(Cain)......
Citing heretics in the early centuries makes weak arguments...you should read this...
The point is... both Peter and Jude wrote their epistles without offering their readers an explanation. That indicates that both Peter and Jude expected their readers to understand exactly what they were talking about... strictly from the biblical texts of the OT. Therefore... to validate what Peter and Jude said... we have to find these angels and their sin somewhere in the OT. Where else could we find such a thing other than in Genesis 6?
The point is... both Peter and Jude wrote their epistles without offering their readers an explanation. That indicates that both Peter and Jude expected their readers to understand exactly what they were talking about... strictly from the biblical texts of the OT. Therefore... to validate what Peter and Jude said... we have to find these angels and their sin somewhere in the OT. Where else could we find such a thing other than in Genesis 6?
If you want to make a doctrine from mere speculation, thats your prerogative. However, there is way too much controversy to stand up in front of folks and teach them this unclear message. I may never convince you guys otherwise, but I promise you, you will blush with unsurety when you teach your theory when I am finished here.
My question is....Why didnt Jesus or the Apostles elaborate on this idea at all?
Maybe they never heard of it themselves yet?....Jesus taught that the angels do not marry or are given in marriage. In their minds, no doubt, that would include "earthly" angels. At least think about that for a moment.(only "outsiders" are making a doctrine of it)
Maybe they drank fermented wine or grape juice at the angel/human weddings also?...LOL(couldnt resist)
That is a supposition, why should the length of life affect the growth of a person?
A person stops growing just before the age of 20.
with a lifespan of 120 years.
now let us multiply that for the years that people used to live before the flood. 900 years more or less.
for the sake of clearness let us just take a short man, about 5 feet tall.
he is never going to make into the NBA but he is OK with that.
This is what this man grew by the age of 20.
now let us divide the 900 into the 120 years now allotted.
900/120 = 7.5
Why not, everything else was big...what do you think frightened the 12 spy's about the giants of Caanan? Why do you think man had to die younger and younger?
There is no way of knowing how big Noah or the Ark was, because of Noahs' cubit. But now at least you know how the GIANT stones of ancient monuments around the world were moved! The ancient legends of civilizations of giants were actually true.
OK now let us multiply the growth of this person by 7.5
7.5 X 5 = 37.5
So according to your logic, a short man in the time of Noah was actually 37.5 feet.
OK let us see how tall is that. Andre the giant was 6' 11 let us round it up and say he was 7 feet tall.
so what you are saying is that a short man in the time of Noah was 30 feet taller than Andre the Giant. Now that is gigantic.
Nice try...exaggerating your numbers to an extreme...LOL
Man stops growing at about (approx)1/4th of the average life span these days only because of modern medicine...in the days of Jesus, it was 1/3 the average lifespan(approx). That would only make ME approx. 17 ft tall in Noahs days....(I am 5'7"). A 6' man would be 18 ft. tall in Noahs days....
Its funny, that folks can believe in Giant lizards(dinosaurs), sharks, cockroaches, ferns, spiders, alligators,mammoths, sloths, birds, trees, dragonflies, horses, etc(in the fossil records)....but at the same time think that a nearly 1000 year old man was only 5'9" tall.(realizing they all lived at the same time, unless you believe in evolution or a "gap theory")
Try realizing the fossil record for us young earth creationists the next time you read this passage....4 There were giants in the earth in those days...Now you know how big the Ark REALLY was and how all the animals could fit in it!
The real question is this...would you pick a fight with Methusalah when he was 150 years old?.....
Why not?
He was a dying, old man that stopped growing when he was 18 right?
The reality was, these were not super old, shriveled up old men, but they ruled their world and could have smashed Andre the Giant like a bug! Methuselah, possibly having stopped growing around 300 years old(1/3)lifespan, would have been a "beast" of a man!
This concept of mine has the fossil record of a former Giant Creation of all types behind it(including Biblically in the land of Caanan), but your concept has NO record at all.(half breed angel/humans)
Before I forget: the animals die younger(shorter life span) and are not Giant size anymore as we can observe in the fossil record, and as we see these days also..FYI
What happened in the downsizing of the rest of creation is a example of the downsizing of man. They happened at the same time.
AGAIN....4 There were GIANTS in the earth in those days
Of course it is not clear to you, because you don't agree. That's just how it goes, and that's okay. We don't have to agree.
Perhaps my background as a Catholic, and all of the superstition that is associated with that, makes we walk away from things that seem mystical or strange.
There are people who believe in aliens and Big Foot, and that's okay as well. To each his own.
Mystical and strange? That's what normal, unsaved people think when we teach something like this:
12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last
13Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
They would say "So your telling me some guy stood up in the middle of nothing and commanded that billions of galaxies containing trillions of Suns and Planets just suddenly appear and within 6 days that happened"?
YEAH RIGHT.
Get the point? Its not about trying to sound educated. The world rejects ALL the miraculous in scripture.
Its our mission to be BELIEVERS in whatever YHWH says.
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