Universal Salvation

[crakjak]

"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Bro. Benincasa,
This scripture and parellel scriptures clearly tell us that "justification has come upon all men" because of Jesus sacrifice, just as condemnation came upon all men because of Adam's sin.

The scriptures that appear to threaten annihilation or endless torment are simply hyperbole discussing the condition of those who have not yet found the pearl of great price. This type of speech is common in the language of scripture. Such as "unless you eat my flesh..." and "unless you hate father and mother and sister and brother...." The idea that God put in place a plan of human existence that failed to take into consideration all of man's condition is inconsistent and incomprehensible for an all knowing, all powerful and all loving God.

The contrast is the legal position of humans that are justified before God, yet not yet developed in their relational position with God. Scripture tells us that all will eventually confess with their mouths and bow with their knees before God. And this is defined as, "every mouth will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." "....that God may be all in all."

I don't believe this worship will be forced, rather it will be because Jesus has become their Lord.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The scriptures in your post, confirm that unless someone accepts and enters into water of life they will continue to be thirsty and they will miss out on abundant life. These verses speak of being saved, the question is saved from what? The answer is "the wrath of God", what is the wrath of a father, but that that will correct the wayward child. In other words, these scriptures do not indicate annihilation nor "endless torment", only that those who do not believe cannot without faith enter in. Not that they will never enter in. Those that do not enter into life will enter into purging, correction, punishment, fire, eternal fire (fire that continues until it accomplishes it purpose), lake of fire, but nowhere when properly interperted is this process without end.

CJ, you believe in Purgatory?

"Final Purification of the Soul"

CJ, what you're presenting is based on speculation on your part to create a teaching based on philosophy.

Originally Posted by crakjak

The scriptures in your post, confirm that unless someone accepts and enters into water of life they will continue to be thirsty and they will miss out on abundant life.

Yes miss out is correct, so the soul that does not go through the water way in Jesus Name will perish.

Deu 4:24-26

"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon UTTERLY PERISH from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall UTTERLY BE DESTROYED."

CJ, this is very simple, get God miffed and He cooks your goose. The Jews understood this very well. What you're introducing with this teaching is that now God is a respecter of persons and changed the rules in the New Covenant. The scripture says that God doesn't change (Mal 3:6) .

Deu 28:20

"The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be DESTROYED, and until thou PERISH quickly; BECAUSE of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me."

Deuteronomy 28 is speaking of the blessings and the curse, it teaches the reader that if one loves God he will be blessed, but if one obeys not God and refuses to love God they will perish.

The Hebrew Bible teaches this principle and it is carried over in the New Testament. CJ, the Bible teachers in the first century AD were not teaching out of the KJV, NIV, they were using the Hebrew scrolls. By using the Torah they taught their converts. Jesus and His followers did not make up some new theology.


Jos 23:11-13

"Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God. ELSE if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you: Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until YE PERISH from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you."

Nothing about being purified by destruction, we are purified before death not after. This whole purification after death doctrine sounds very pagan.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is about the death, burial, and resurrection unto LIFE and that more abundantly. Nothing about having to die physically and get a purification after we are dead.

If I am misrepresenting something here please correct me with a little more clarity on what you believe.

Jdg 5:31

"So let all thine enemies PERISH, O LORD: but let them that love him be as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years."

In the Hebrew mind set there was no coming back from perishing.

Job 4:8-9

"Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed."

In the Hebrew Bible those who were wicked perished.

Heb 10:26-31

"For if WE sin WILFULLY AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose YE, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

CJ, what you're trying to present is not scriptural but philosophical.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[crakjak]

You continue to interpret perish to support your position, and with one exception you us OT scripture to prove your point.

Please, prove that perish means endless torment or annihilation.

Hebrews 10:26-31 establishes that no one could be save except thru the blood of the Son of God. And those that reject the saving power of the blood will suffer more than just physical death, they will face age enduring punishment after death. After this punishment has accomplished its purpose it will come to an end, just as the fires of Sodom ended.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

You continue to interpret perish to support your position, and with one exception you us OT scripture to prove your point.

Please, prove that perish means endless torment or annihilation.

1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner.

2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually.

3. Chiefly British To spoil or deteriorate.

v.tr.
To bring to destruction; destroy.

נפלnâphal

This Hebrew root literally means to fall down in death. It's used repeatedly as fallen in battle, or by sword. Also the word appears in the Bible as to be "cut off" and to "perish"

The Hebrew word nâphal sure never held a meaning of a period of time.

אבד'âbad aw-bad'

Lev 26:38

"And ye shall PERISH 'âbad among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up."

Levitcus 26:38 is just one verse showing the wrath of God using the word 'âbad "perish" and its meaning is to DESTROY, REMOVED, LOST, VOID, TO LOSE. In the 180 times that the word 'âbad is used in the Hebrew scriptures it never is used in the context of any period of time and that the DESTRUCTION will be revoked at any future time.

CJ, I cannot see how you're coming up with this doctrine of Purgatory for the sinners?

Originally Posted by crakjak

Hebrews 10:26-31 establishes that no one could be save except thru the blood of the Son of God. And those that reject the saving power of the blood will suffer more than just physical death, they will face age enduring punishment after death. After this punishment has accomplished its purpose it will come to an end, just as the fires of Sodom ended.

CJ, can you please (with scripture, chapter and verse) explain what I bolded in RED I think that would be an interesting start so that we can see what exactly you're trying to teach.

In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

CJ, before I post anything else, I really need you to define your doctrine. Especially point out how the "perishing and destruction of the soul is temporary? Please explain (with scriptures).

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner.

2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually.

3. Chiefly British To spoil or deteriorate.

v.tr.
To bring to destruction; destroy.

נפלnâphal

This Hebrew root literally means to fall down in death. It's used repeatedly as fallen in battle, or by sword. Also the word appears in the Bible as to be "cut off" and to "perish"

The Hebrew word nâphal sure never held a meaning of a period of time.

אבד'âbad aw-bad'

Lev 26:38

"And ye shall PERISH 'âbad among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up."

Levitcus 26:38 is just one verse showing the wrath of God using the word 'âbad "perish" and its meaning is to DESTROY, REMOVED, LOST, VOID, TO LOSE. In the 180 times that the word 'âbad is used in the Hebrew scriptures it never is used in the context of any period of time and that the DESTRUCTION will be revoked at any future time.

CJ, I cannot see how you're coming up with this doctrine of Purgatory for the sinners?



CJ, can you please (with scripture, chapter and verse) explain what I bolded in RED I think that would be an interesting start so that we can see what exactly you're trying to teach.

In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

I agree with all of your definitions of "perish" it means to die, a wasted physical life, not endless torment or annihilation.

Concerning Sodom, the resident's phyiscal lives were "perish" they died, the fire went out. Then the book of Ezekiel tells us Sodom and her sister (cities) will be restored:Ezekiel 16:55

"Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state.

What I am presenting is that God will purge, purify and redeem His whole creation. The blood of Jesus makes it possible. There is much hyperbolic language that seems to teach "endless torment", yet when thoroughly researched it is not nearly are clear as tradition teaches.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

CJ, before I post anything else, I really need you to define your doctrine. Especially point out how the "perishing and destruction of the soul is temporary? Please explain (with scriptures).

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

I will respond to this post in the next day or two.

Going to bed. Goodnight!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I agree with all of your definitions of "perish" it means to die, a wasted physical life, not endless torment or annihilation.

Concerning Sodom, the resident's phyiscal lives were "perish" they died, the fire went out. Then the book of Ezekiel tells us Sodom and her sister (cities) will be restored:Ezekiel 16:55

"Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state.

CJ, the prophet is not talking about saving sodomites and restoring them, the prophet is speaking of restoring the fruitfullness of the Gentiles spiritually in Christ. Samaria, Sodom are terms used for the Gentiles as a whole and are restored spiritually through the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

Eze 16:60-63

"Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy YOUTH, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD."

Originally Posted by crakjak

What I am presenting is that God will purge, purify and redeem His whole creation.

You see CJ, that what you're saying is very difficult to see, could you please lay out this teaching with enough scripture and your explanation so we might understand what you're trying to present?

Originally Posted by crakjak

The blood of Jesus makes it possible. There is much hyperbolic language that seems to teach "endless torment", yet when thoroughly researched it is not nearly are clear as tradition teaches.

Show us what you mean by presenting some kind of outline.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

CJ, the prophet is not talking about saving sodomites and restoring them, the prophet is speaking of restoring the fruitfullness of the Gentiles spiritually in Christ. Samaria, Sodom are terms used for the Gentiles as a whole and are restored spiritually through the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

Eze 16:60-63

"Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy YOUTH, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD."



You see CJ, that what you're saying is very difficult to see, could you please lay out this teaching with enough scripture and your explanation so we might understand what you're trying to present?



Show us what you mean by presenting some kind of outline.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

"Bump"

In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You see CJ, that what you're saying is very difficult to see, could you please lay out this teaching with enough scripture and your explanation so we might understand what you're trying to present?



Show us what you mean by presenting some kind of outline.

Jesus said he came "to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10. Not that which was in danger of being lost, but that which was lost. All mankind were lost. Jesus, therefore, came to save all mankind. He came to do or accomplish the will of God. John 6: 38, "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." We have seen that God's will is that all men should be saved. The testimony of Jesus on this point is, John 6:39, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." This is not only the will of God respecting all who are given to Christ, but it is also his will that those who believe in the gospel should have everlasting life here in this world. John 6:40, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life." Compare this with John 5:24 and 17:3. Not any who are given to Christ then will eventually be lost. Well, how many are given to Christ? Ps. 2:7, 8, "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession."