The point I was making was that in order for God to give someone over to homosexuality, homosexuality must be considered abominable. Not all homosexuals were idolators turned over to homosexuality as a result. But the fact remains that God does not give one over to something that is innocent. And it also remains that homosexuality is considered defilement of people's bodies with one another with or without idolatry involved.
I agree that God did not give the idolaters over to something "innocent" or even something that was otherwise not sinful. As for defilement of people's bodies, all sexual sin fits under that classification.
Of course, what's really interesting about all this is how so many people focus on Romans 1:26-27 and ignore verses 28-32. While some people here (not you) would stupidly interpret that as downplaying homosexuality, I'm actually trying to paint those other sins on the list as being worse than other people here on AFF think they are.
I realize what you are saying and agree with you. However, the scriptures which indicate that Jesus was praying can not be turned around and used to tell someone they too have to pray as Jesus did or they are lost and going to hell. The OT certainly shows different types of laws - some ceremonial and some not. I'm not sure how we came up with the label "moral law" which indicates it is somehow greater than the others. The truth is we can divide the law up into a million pieces. Laws which pertain to men, laws which pertain to women, laws which pertain to the Priesthood, etc. Would the laws written to the Priesthood somehow suggest that they are to be followed by modern priests/pastors?
BTW - I'm trying your quote suggestion. My brain is on overload as a full-time student. I shouldn't be taking on another task (referring of course to this dialogue) but feel it could do all of us some good. You will find I do not get upset and completely respect those with differing opinions. Those who are looking to start a fight are wasting their time with me. I will definitely talk though.
But IF the bible shows a pattern or is self explanatory that there is a division in the law as illustrated before, I don't need a verse that explicitly tells you there is one. It's self evident
The OT certainly shows different types of laws - some ceremonial and some note. I'm not sure how we came up with the label "moral law" which indicates it is somehow greater than the others. The truth is we can divide the law up into a million pieces. Laws which pertain to men, laws which pertain to women, laws which pertain to the Priesthood, etc. Would the laws written to the Priesthood somehow suggest that they are to be followed by modern priests/pastors?
Can you please explain how saying "moral law" indicates it is "somehow" greater than others?
Let me briefly explain the difference...If God made a law as pertaining to HOW Israel was to be run as a nation, under a king. That is a law pertaining to governance....get that?
If God makes another law that says "you shall not murder" that is a moral law.
One related to personal morality and the other to running a nation.
You asked about where the bible expresses this teaching that the law of Moses has these divisions, yet you pretty much admitted these divisions existed. So are we in agreement here?
Before we move on to other issues, let's make sure we understand what foundations we are in agreement on
I realize there are a lot of mixed emotions presenting themselves in this discussion and I appreciate all of them.
Before I continue with any discussion I need to make a couple points:
1. I am not here to fight or argue. If you have a serious question I will do my best to reply. I will not reply to a list of 20 scriptures [emphasis added of course]. I will, however, deal with one scripture and/or topic at a time.
2. I will not have discussions with mean or hateful people. I am full of love and compassion and prefer to surround myself with others who are as well.
3. Most of my friends and family are in the UPC and are located throughout the country. I have only had 3 people shun or rebuke me for who I am.
4. I am 32 years old and have been "out" since I was 18.
5. I am not in a relationship with anyone at this time in my life and have not been for a very long time. Therefore, comments and accusations that I am only trying to make my Theology match my morality will be ignored completely. I say what I say out a true desire to help others who have been or are where I was growing up in the UPC. I was suicidal at the age of 17 because I couldn't understand why God allowed me to be this way. If you truly knew me you would understand that I am not some liberal with an agenda. Quite the opposite.
6. I have been Music Director at three UPC churches while openly gay. As long as I wasn't "active in the lifestyle" the pastors allowed me to use my talents. These were not all "liberal UPC churches" either. All three pastors acknowledged that homosexuality is beyond their understanding and that after their years of experience they understood one thing: homosexuals do not choose to be homosexuals in the sense that a liar chooses to lie; a murder chooses to murder; a smoker chooses to smoke; a drug abuser uses drugs. I think most church members would be surprised at how many Pastors hold to this view point.
7. There are hurting kids and teenagers in your local assemblies who are struggling with the fact that they are homosexual. In fact, many of you may unknowingly have family members, children, nieces and nephews who are dealing with this in their life. Keep that possibility in mind before attacking someone, like myself, who you don't know.
I don't mean to sound mean or anything, but in all honesty most of the above is irrelevant to me. You stated earlier that you are willing to have a discussion I believe....based on scriptural evidences. Truth is not based on emotional appeal, nor on personal testimonies. Everyone has a personal testimony as to something they believe or some event that has occured, but it does not validate that belief though it might add an emotional impact to it.
Also, most homosexuals I have met were really bi-sexual, admitting to attraction to both sexes, though maybe not to the same degree. I do not believe God made you that way.
And I don't mean to be crude or even suggest what you are or do is worse than any other sin (not that you see it that way), but might a pedophile ask why God allowed him to be that way or become that way? There are perhaps many factors involved in everyone of us from the time we were children that might forever affect and shape our psyche to cause us to think a certain way or believe a certain way about our own selves. Do we ask "Why did God allow me to be this way"?
I was born a sinner...I was shapen in iniquity. Do I blame God or ask rhetorically why He allowed that to happen?
BTW I do not necessarily subcribe to the notion that just because someone has certain feelings that they are sinning. I have physical attractions to married women, but I do not believe I am condemned as an adulterer just for having that attraction. Nor do I speculate or believe that God made me or allowed me to be that way.
You indicated you are at the moment not involved with anyone...is that simply because you have not found someone or is that because you are trying to remain celibate for moral reasons?
Again, we are dividing the law into two categories and then making assumptions that one was fulfilled and one was not. Imply all day long if you want, but the Scripture does not make this distinction now matter how you spin it.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28. How can I be judged for breaking a "moral law" if being found guilty requires God to identify me male or female? If God does not see male or female then I think we can accurately assume that any of the law requiring a divine distinction of the sexes has been done away with. This is, of course, an assumption but one that is based on more scripture than your assumption that there is a division between moral and ceremonial law and that the moral law is somehow eternal.
You are making some assumptions here that I do not see supported by your passage. Perhaps you should exegize it and the context for us. That someone can only be judged requires God to identify you as male or female was never a requirement that I can think of.
The bible still continues to note the sexual differences between Christian men and women in the New Testament
Lastly, as for the law, Paul said he had not known sin but BY the law. Then he said "shall we continue to sin? God forbid!"
See, Paul is NOT saying that once you are a believer you are now exempt from being righteous or holy or "not sinning"....
Rom 6:11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Rom 6:13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, Rom 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
Paul said the Law is a school master that leads us TO Christ. Because the law shows us the wickedness of our own human condition and just how far away from God humanity really is.
The morality of the law is repeated throughout the NT as well. Also..why would Jesus not only re-enforce the law but even explain things like even looking with lust a person was committing adultery if the law was no longer going to teach us what morality was?
Real quick and off the subject. I am new to this website and am trying to figure out why some of my comments are posted immediately and others are not. Some appear to need approval yet others posted right away. Can anyone tell me if I am doing something wrong in the way I am posting my comments? Thanks!
This thread was put into moderated mode...even some of my posts were moderated. Let me see what I can do
I realize there are a lot of mixed emotions presenting themselves in this discussion and I appreciate all of them.
Before I continue with any discussion I need to make a couple points:
1. I am not here to fight or argue. If you have a serious question I will do my best to reply. I will not reply to a list of 20 scriptures [emphasis added of course]. I will, however, deal with one scripture and/or topic at a time.
2. I will not have discussions with mean or hateful people. I am full of love and compassion and prefer to surround myself with others who are as well.
3. Most of my friends and family are in the UPC and are located throughout the country. I have only had 3 people shun or rebuke me for who I am.
4. I am 32 years old and have been "out" since I was 18.
5. I am not in a relationship with anyone at this time in my life and have not been for a very long time. Therefore, comments and accusations that I am only trying to make my Theology match my morality will be ignored completely. I say what I say out a true desire to help others who have been or are where I was growing up in the UPC. I was suicidal at the age of 17 because I couldn't understand why God allowed me to be this way. If you truly knew me you would understand that I am not some liberal with an agenda. Quite the opposite.
6. I have been Music Director at three UPC churches while openly gay. As long as I wasn't "active in the lifestyle" the pastors allowed me to use my talents. These were not all "liberal UPC churches" either. All three pastors acknowledged that homosexuality is beyond their understanding and that after their years of experience they understood one thing: homosexuals do not choose to be homosexuals in the sense that a liar chooses to lie; a murder chooses to murder; a smoker chooses to smoke; a drug abuser uses drugs. I think most church members would be surprised at how many Pastors hold to this view point.
7. There are hurting kids and teenagers in your local assemblies who are struggling with the fact that they are homosexual. In fact, many of you may unknowingly have family members, children, nieces and nephews who are dealing with this in their life. Keep that possibility in mind before attacking someone, like myself, who you don't know.
Hi Brad. Welcome to the forum.
I haven't read all of the posts on this thread, but I'd like to ask you, while you admit to being homosexual, do you believe that the lifestyle is an abomination to God, as the Bible says?
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
I have a question for you...not trying to make you any more or less a sinner than anyone else who struggles with sexual issues, but I am curious as to; while participating in UPCI music ministries did you abstain from homosexual relationships for lack of opportunity or because you felt it a sin and wanted to please God?
This is something between you and God and you don't really have to answer if it is too personal.
Why did God inflict blindness? Why did God inflict dumbness? Why did God create the division of races? Why did God confound his original created language? Why did God inflict barrenness? God pronounced and inflicted all sorts of judgements on people for their disobedience but that does not mean are all of His judgements/curses are eternally and inherently sinful.
Those things you mention here aren't listed as sins in the Bible. Homosexuality is.
__________________
I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Can you please explain how saying "moral law" indicates it is "somehow" greater than others?
You asked about where the bible expresses this teaching that the law of Moses has these divisions, yet you pretty much admitted these divisions existed. So are we in agreement here?
Before we move on to other issues, let's make sure we understand what foundations we are in agreement on
I think most people would agree that to say something is "immoral" is to imply a greater degree of culpability. It would be just as accurate to define what we are here calling "moral law" as "non-ceremonial law" but we do not. We have assigned the term "moral" without any measuring stick for doing so. Is a man touching his wife during menstruation a moral law or ceremonial law?
Just to understand our foundations I will say that I do see there are different types of laws but do not see where the Bible in anyway divides them; stating some are to be applied to all people and others are not. When Paul said we are no longer under the burden of the Law, why didn't he specify which part of the Law he was referring to? I would suggest he did not do so because there was no distinction to be made.
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